Official 2020 US Election: Democratic Party Discussion

[Bofferbrauer2]

uran10 said:

AngryLittleAlchemist said:

You can't say on the one hand that Joe sidesteps and pivots his opinion over time (thus being inconsistent), and then say we can't trust him to make changes because they're different from opinions he had 40 years ago. That's not how that works. I hate to say it, but the good thing about Joe Biden as of now is that he's kind of in the palm of our hands. He has to unite the democratic party, many of which are progressives, and that requires promises. Now could he backpedal on this stuff in the general? Sure. Could he do it under his presidency? Sure, but I don't think it's too likely, because these are already compromises as is. 

I'm not saying these people don't exist, but I think the reality is, while the progressive block in the democratic primary is big, they aren't even doing a good job representing themselves, and most of those people will probably end up voting for Biden. If anything, a lot of those voters would probably have higher turnout in a general than a primary anyways, because that's generally the case. So when you say that "The Us in that will not move to Biden", you are categorically wrong. Even among Hillary Clinton, a candidate way less likeable and with much more baggage for Sanders supporters, still 85% of his supporters ended up voting for her. 

And look. Like I said. I agree with the pathos of what you're saying, I really think just electing incremental politicians for the rest of our lives is a bad idea. And people really shouldn't have to vote for a candidate they don't like, because it's slightly better than an alternative, let alone entire parties. However, what I explained was not a lesser of two evils. A lesser of two evils is a concept based on hating both candidates almost equally, and thinking that both have intentions which will either lead to problems for the country or so little change that it comes at the expense of the American public. I don't think either is the case for Joe Biden, he's just getting us to that same path just slower. I won't lie, I'm a little worried about what a Biden win would signal to the party as I think it could essentially put in cement that progressives can't win an election, at the same time, the policies and political mind-share have already been won by progressives in reality. 

And let's be honest, Biden can't fall back on these campaign promises. Not when they are the biggest reason for progressives and youth voters to join his side. There's not even a valid comparison to be made between the level of scrutiny one gets for changing their opinion over the course of decades behind the scenes in the senate, and doing so on a campaign trail for presidency. 2016 showed more than anything that depressed voters can't win elections. Despite winning the popular vote, Hillary still lost, and I think a lot of that is (besides the electoral college obviously) because many of her voters were depressed voters. They didn't get people in-line. They didn't draw huge turnout. People weren't convincing their friends to go vote. Sure, she already won the popular vote, but she could have made that win even more convincing, and she didn't. And that's really not shown to be the case for Biden, if anything it's the exact opposite if you compare voter turnout for states that had previously already had primaries. 

Also while I think Sanders campaign would push for a more left-leaning compromise, I don't think the fact that he pushed for no compromises originally would lead to less compromise inherently in execution. I do think it's possible that Sanders would have a more left-leaning compromise, I mean, that's why I voted for him in the end. But that's an oddly bizarre take in general, and doesn't make a lot of sense. Compromises are not like a binary thing where, every time something is proposed, there is automatically a compromise. It's more like whenever something is too far left of something, compromises have to be made to draw those congressmen in. As it is, some democrats might not even vote for Bernie's proposals, whereas Biden's would probably be way more popular in congress, and we may even flip the senate. 

And at this point, as a Bernie supporter, I've learned to detach these politicians from their supporters, even their campaign staff. I think it's really odd to highlight Biden's campaign as being disrespectful in this regard when, Bernie's staff has gotten criticisms for a lot of the same things. I would think, if anything, the number one thing you would learn as a Bernie supporter is that these staffers and fans don't represent these politicians very well (and let's be honest, policies speak louder than words). 

I get what you're saying, but I don't believe Biden will go through with any of this. We've been through this song and dance with Obama. He said 1 thing did another, its why progressives don't have any real trust in the system it also doesn't help that if you check the data on exit polls and what the UN says that they're also rigging the vote which again, election integrity is something I'm big on and its a big reason why I would never vote for them. Your record exists and I will vote off of what you've done, not what you're currently saying. My point is simple. I don't like Biden because I cannot trust him. He's a pathological liar and has been on the wrong side of history for the majority of 40 years. Sure Bernie can try to pull him left, but he'll pivot in the general, suppress the vote and lose (unless Trump keeps f*ing up).

Also this sends a message to the democratic party, no matter how much they screw you, no matter how much they trample on you, they will always get your vote. As long as the other guy is "super evil" they can depend on your vote and therefore don't need to give you anything cause you will always vote.

Not voting for Biden sends the message to stop taking those on the left for granted but unfortunately, they keep having this "evil" guy on the other end that you fear more so you vote for this Lesser evil. The only way to end this cycle, is to send that message clearly. Either we elect Bernie which is most likely no longer possible cause he doesn't have the balls to eviscerate Biden, or we send them a clear message in the general that we will never support their anointed candidate just because the guy on the other side is "super evil".

Quite Frankly: If we support they take us for granted, if we don't support they'll turn around and blame us for Trump even though they never do anything for us. That's the main takeaway here and we'll never get anything if we keep saying "but republican is so evil that I have to vote for this right wing dem".

This is why I'm advocating voting third party - but only if you're living in a state that's safe democratic or republican!

If third party votes go above 5% total on national level, both dems and reps should wonder what they did to push people to vote somebody else instead who doesn't have a perceived chance at winning anything.