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Pemalite said:
o_O.Q said:

"The mother owns the body in question, not the fetus. Thus the mother should have the first and last say of what occurs in her body... Otherwise we are giving the rights of the host body to another human being."

"If the fetus can survive via it's own power, then let it, but it shouldn't be allowed to at the expense of another person."

fascinating... are you in favour of resources being taken from richer people and being handed down to poorer people?

Within reason. Money being taken from richer people isn't the same as giving up your OWN rights to your OWN body.
That is ultimately the crux of the issue at hand.

What if some random person on the street had a disease... And for them to survive you had to give up a chunk of your life so that they could live at your expense? You wouldn't have the right to say "no" either. You would be forced to do it.

EricHiggin said:

People should own the money they make, not anyone else, aside from the basic Gov taxes. Thus each individual should have the first and last say of what happens to their money, otherwise we are giving the highest earners much less incentive to keep doing whatever it is that is making them truckloads of money. Money that is needed to be able to give to everyone, to do whatever they want...

If people can survive via their own power, then let them, but it shouldn't be allowed at the expense of other people. Just because UBI is a 'digital abortion' for the highest earners, doesn't change the fact that someone is having something taken away from them. (Aside from those who choose to share their wealth)

The highest earners don't loose any incentive what so ever.
In nations with significant levels of welfare, what you describe generally doesn't occur either.

In-fact... Because there is more wealth redistribution, there is generally higher levels of spending overall across the entire populace which drives the wheels of an economy.

Remember... Someone who is a billionaire likely has a ton of money stashed in a bank somewhere, ultimately not being reinvested and thus not adding to the economy a great deal... Where-as a low-income earner will generally spend every penny they acquire...

Give a million low income earners an extra billion dollars and that billions dollars will be spent into the economy. - Give a rich person a billion dollars and it will sit in a bank somewhere.

Jicale said:
I wont have an opinion on abortion since I'm a male and females say I shouldn't but, I've seen a lot of article's and comments saying males shouldn't have a say because males can't have babies but the same groups say males can give birth when (trans-males) give birth and their real males. So males should have an opinion since males can give birth. We need some consistency.

It takes two. The male should have a say. - But at the end of the day... Because the female is the vessel carrying the fetus, she should get the final say of what happens to her own body.

It's literally an argument about property (Aka. Body) rights.

melbye said:

No country in the world has universal basic income, they tried it in Finland and it failed

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/23/finland-to-end-basic-income-trial-after-two-years

Plenty of nations with significant financial safety nets though.
I mean here the only difference from a universal income and our current Basic Income is that it is means tested.

Mnementh said:

Agreed on the first part.

For the second part: no, UBI is not implemented in any country. There are though some experiments and more locally placed implementation, notably in north america (native americans through casino money and the Alaska Permanent Fund).

https://www.wired.com/story/free-money-the-surprising-effects-of-a-basic-income-supplied-by-government/

https://qz.com/1205591/a-universal-basic-income-experiment-in-alaska-shows-employment-didnt-drop/

Yeah. I was corrected prior. Cheers.

zero129 said:

And the expense of the babys life? it isnt important?. Why should the mother have more rights then the child?.

Because the mother owns the body? Not the child?

Child is more than welcomed to survive via it's own accord after it's been aborted.

Unless you are suggesting people should give up their rights to their own body? Would you give up your right to your body if I needed say... Your kidneys to survive?

zero129 said:

If a woman goes and does the deed gets pregnant, yes she should have to carry that child to term unless the is some risk to her life. (And no im not talking about rape cases or forced pregnancy).

The woman had her choice and she made it in this case. Why should it be ok to take away the rights of a child because the mother has now changed her mind?.

Nope. Because what you are suggesting is that a person should give up their Freedoms to their own bodily autonomy.

Plus... Not all pregnancies are "intended". - Condoms break, anti-pregnancy pills falter.
A friend of mine had the "snip" after his 4th child. - Ironically, his body healed the procedure and he ended up with a 5th child. - They kept it of course, he has a good paying job being border control.

Plus... A pregnancy is 9 months, circumstances can change, you can loose a job and become homeless, you could be suffering from an illness... List goes on.

At the end of the day though... It comes down to property ownership of an individuals body... And the person who was born to that body (The mother) should have the first and last say of what happens to it.

zero129 said:

Abortion is killing. im all for choice and the woman has the choice to not get pregnant in the first place.

So I assume you are against the consumption of meat? Against the death Penalty?

At the end of the day, we are approaching 8~ billion people on this planet, a few abortions isn't really that much of a big deal.

Azelover said:
Separation of church and state is definitely an issue, so they shouldn't be quoting the Bible. However, you don't have to be Christian to agree that killing another human being is bad, and should be illegal. Some people think that abortion of particularly developed fetuses is murder. This doesn't need to be a religious issue necessarily. People can be pro-life and completely scientific at the same time. One thing isn't exclusive to the other. Pro-life doesn't necessarily mean you are religious at all..

Anyone who quotes anything from the Bible can generally have their view discarded in it's entirety until they can prove their assertions with empirical evidence that it is factual with it's claims.

Separation of Church and State would be something I would like for every nation across the globe to strive towards, religion is entirely unnecessary.

Let's say there's a husband and wife, and he supports them financially, but over time she gets crazier and crazier, and more annoying as each day passes. He tries a bunch of things like getting her help and even lives separate from her at times, yet she still goes out of her way to make his life beyond miserable. Let's even say she got examined and somehow comes away without being diagnosed as a nut job because she's that sly. If the husband can't take it anymore because he feels like she isn't worth it and is a burden, but won't divorce her because he doesn't think she should be able to leech off of him financially anymore, and can't live his life because she's clearly willing to go out of her way to make his life miserable, so much so that he's been pondering suicide, if he one day snaps and literally beats her to death, should he get away with it? Should someone be forced to withhold physical rage towards another? If he's going to cause harm or even death to himself otherwise, which scenario is preferred?

Is it his fault for getting into the situation in the first place or by not using another option to get out of it, as much as he doesn't want to? Is it ok because things weren't planned or expected to turn out that way, and it's his mind and body that were also at risk, and it's his body to decide what to do with?

What's the point in working harder or smarter if you're being given enough free money? Where's the incentive to do more? Because you could one day make it to the top? Where is the top? Was it gasoline transportation, single core 1GHz CPU's, PS2, Blackberry's? Why create newer better stuff if there's little incentive to do so, other than life or death scenario's like war or pandemic's?

How much billionaires have stashed vs how much is locked up in some multi year fund or stock probably isn't as much as many would think in comparison. You don't get billionaire rich by not wisely investing a bunch of that money. You also don't stay that rich if you give it away. The world is so connected today that if you run a multi billion dollar business, having billions to keep things going if something happens isn't a dumb idea. Just look at the stir over the tariff war. That's just one possibility of the many that could hurt your business, that you basically have no control over. What you do have control over, is how much you decided to put away for a rainy day, or year. Most billionaires did whatever had to be done to make that money, and many people benefited off of that in some manner in terms of goods or services rendered.

If you and a buddy were dropped into a cage against a team of two other guys, and you each had a knife dropped to you in a team death match, and you had little idea how to fight let alone wield a knife, but your buddy is a military trained badass knife fighter, are you seriously going to hold onto your knife and hope for the best, or are you going to give it to him so he has two? If he by chance dies, odds are you were dead anyway, but if he slay's both, you live and simply had to give up something you really didn't need to do so.

One of the main reasons socialism doesn't work is because many of the bright people and hard workers stop doing so because there is little incentive. If everyone is treated as much the same and equally as possible, that's exactly what you end up with. The bright idea's disappear and less and less work get's completed. Why come up with a great idea if you might not be able to make it happen because you can't get enough money to do it? Even if you find a way to, why do it for a pat on the back? Why work your butt off if it's not going to really help you or the company get ahead much if at all? Once the loopholes are sealed and taxes are jacked up the businesses will slowly crumble or they will flat out leave.

The greater the incentives, the more push there will be to gain that incentive. The more push, the greater the competition. The greater the competition, the wider the array of idea's brought to the table. The better the overall idea, the more the market will reward it. The more the market rewards it, the more incentive to improve it or build upon it.

Last edited by EricHiggin - on 19 May 2019