Ka-pi96 said:
sundin13 said:
There isn't really anything to "buy" here. Ignoring the fact that we have words for these things real quick, it shouldn't be difficult to understand that there are both biological and social aspects of maleness and femaleness. Biological aspects of maleness/femaleness involve things like chromosomes and genital formation, while social aspects involve things like clothing choice and hobby choice. We know if we see someone wearing a dress, high heels and lipstick, that they are following social norms regarding femaleness. The very fact that you bring up things like chopping trees, joining the army, and wearing skirts or trousers here demonstrates that there are societal expectation of those things involving maleness and femaleness.
The word used to describe those societal norms is "gender".
Does this mean that someone who identifies as a female has to embody literally every aspect of femaleness? Of course not. There are a few different concepts which must be discussed here (and I want to keep this brief), but first I want to mention that our binary definitions of gender should be seen as a semantic limitation and not a functional one. This leads me to the first concept:
Gender expression - Gender expression refers simply to how an individual expresses themselves in relation to gender. Which norms do they adhere to and which norms do they not adhere to? As stated above, individuals rarely completely match social expectations for one gender so this basically refers to the spectrum between hypermasculinity and hyperfemininity and everything in between.
Gender identity - Gender identity refers to the psychological aspects which point to how an individual identifies. This is up to the individual and is not assigned. No one is a woman because they express feminine characteristics or wear skirts, however, typically those who exhibit more "feminine" gender expression identity more as a woman (but not always).
Finally, sexuality doesn't really play into this question here, because sexuality isn't really social in the same way as the norms that we are speaking about. There are non-chosen aspects of sexuality which largely separates it from issues relating to transgenderism.
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So it's just about expectations? See, that's why I call bullshit. If you're a man and you like wearing dresses then that doesn't make you a woman. You're just a man that likes dresses. Why not just accept that? Some people may think it's weird, but if people didn't do things that others might consider weird then nobody would ever do anything.
Now if the problem is that they don't like the biological body they have then I can sympathise with those people. But anything less than that and I have no sympathy for them. They're just pretending to be something they're not for no reason.
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Gender refers more to "norms" than "expectations", but that is pretty close.
As for your "man that wears dresses" example, you are speaking about gender expression here. This is something that I acknowledged in my last post. Some people are fine with being a man that wears dresses and expression does not force identity. There are entire subcultures dedicated to cross dressing and there is nothing wrong with that. However, these people tend to still identify as a man. That is where gender identity comes in. And yes, often their physical body does create discomfort. That is why transitioning is often employed. To allow an individual's body to match their identity.
Beyond that, it seems to be largely personal, emotional views which don't really have much of a root in facts and to be frank, your opinion isn't really the one that matters here. No one should care whether you think they should transition (I don't mean this in a rude way). What should matter is whether an individual would be more comfortable and be able to lead the life they wish to lead were they to transition. If you put a typical lumberjack looking man in a dress, they aren't going to be able to live as a woman without significant impediments. Transitioning often removes some of those impediments.
