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RolStoppable said:
potato_hamster said:

What's that you're getting on with about facts, and logic and reason?

https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/stock/information/index.html

On what planet does 15% of treasury shares represent a majority stake in the company? No one person owns a majority stake in Nintendo, which means its board of directors controls the executive. In fact, Nintendo's largest share holder is JP Morgan/ Chase Bank, who own 12% of the company. I'm not sure why you think that, but Nintendo's board of directors don't actually represent over 50% ownership of Nintendo's company.  Furthermore, just because Iwata wasn't fired doesn't mean that Iwata wasn't able to be fired. The board of directors chose not to do that, that doesn't mean they couldn't or wouldn't. I don't understand why on earth do you think Nintendo is special? Ohh right. Wishful thinking. It explains everything with you.

I also have never said that Nintendo's current situation means that Nintendo will go third party tomorrow, or next year, or even necessarily in the next 5. I'm not sure why you seem to think that because Nintendo is coming off of two devices and a combined 80 m in sales that means anything regarding whether it still makes sense to keep making hardware after the Switch. You wont find a single quote or anything inferring that I thought that Nintendo should stop making hardware before the announcement of the Switch. I never said it, because I've never thought it. But here you are arguing against a position I never took. They call that a "strawman argument". But hey, logical and reasonable people totally employ logical fallacies when arguing against others, right?

Let me paint a little picture for you to explain why you harping on Wii U + 3DS sales do not matter. Let's fast forward 5 years into the future to a hypothetical worst case scenario: 250m sales between WIi and DS -> 80 million in sales between WIi U and 3DS -> 25 million in sales for Switch. That's a 90% drop in hardware sales over what? a 17 year period between 2005 and  2022. So the Wii U and 3DS did 80 million in sales between 2011 and 2016? So what? Why does that matter at all in 2022? What does that have to do with Nintendo's profitability right then, or how profitable it'll be in 2022 or 2027? In 2022, 5 years after the Switch is released, if Nintendo is looking at 25 million in sales, what Nintendo's board of directors are going to think? "Well appears our marketshare in the console space is at a all time low, while our mobile sales is keeping our company in the black but hey, we sold 80 million consoles between 2012 and 2017 so let's make the Switch 2!  No. They won't do that. They'll do a post-mortem on the Switch, figure out what went right and what went wrong, maybe decide to make a new console, or maybe decide that there's more profit to be made making games for an install base of 150+ million on the PS4 (or PS5 or whatever) rather than sticking to their current install base of 25 million with yet another failed attempt to recapture past audiences. If the board of directors doesn't have the confidence its their executive to make the right decision, they will fire, and replace them with people that will.

I just painted an entirely plausible scenario. Care to refute it with some more wishful thinking?

Do I want that to happen? No. I don't. I don't want to play Nintendo games on my Playstation unless I have to. I have no problem with Nintendo making hardware, I have a problem with the hardware Nintendo makes.  I just don't want Nintendo hardware to be so unappealing that I would rather not play Nintendo games than be forced to buy their terrible hardware. Nintendo has failed me with the Wii, they failed me with the Wii U, and they have already failed me with the Switch (and even then I still might buy one anyways, because as a Nintendo fan, it feels wrong to me that my son might grow up without playing Nintendo games) I don't like the direction Nintendo has been headed in for quite some time. I've seen the direction they've headed in and I'm not surprised to see them continue to stumble as they have been. Nintendo doesn't want my money? That's fine. I'm quite happy with the gaming experiences I'm getting elsewhere. That doesn't mean I hate Nintendo, it doesn't mean I want them to fail. It just means that they currently suck horribly and continue to sucks far as my gaming needs are concerned. Understand?

I was wrong on the breakdown of shares, but said breakdown should make it clear how unlikely it is that investors will overthrow Nintendo's leadership because the shares are divided among so many individuals. As for Nintendo's board of directors, they are all on the same page. So yes, in that sense Nintendo is special. Everyone on the board of directors has risen from within the company, there are no outsiders. Hence why the board of directors won't command a drastic change in corporate culture such as abandoning dedicated video game hardware and software. Since the possibility for it to happen is so itty bitty tiny, I call your argumentation FUD. You are trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt when there's actually little reason to be concerned about Nintendo. The arrow is pointing up for them right now.

The first portion of your post that I highlighted in bold font is funny because in said paragraph you complain about me planting a strawman, then in the second portion highlighted in bold you go on to make the argument that is supposedly a strawman. It can't be a strawman when it is your actual argument. This is the kind of scenario that you need as a prerequisite to make your posts about Nintendo being in trouble and possibly going third party in the not too distant future. You need to doom the Switch to make the scenario of Nintendo changing course in a drastic manner at least somewhat realistic.

If you have a problem with the hardware Nintendo makes, then you have a problem with Nintendo making hardware. That's where the logical conclusion that you want to play Nintendo games on your PlayStation comes in. You include the Wii in your list of hardware that Nintendo has done wrong, but that console was a huge success. Your arguments are driven by emotions, that's also why each one of your posts has a condescending tone.

That "special" board of directors? Why? They're all on the same page? Well yes, that's how Board of Directors work.  They're all still beholden to the shareholders, they're all still driven by profits.  But, they all came up within the company?

Shuntaro Furukawa has only been with Nintendo since 2012. Katsuhiro Umeyama,Yoshio Mitamura, and Naoki Mizutani appear to have never worked for Nintendo. They are "Outside" directors after all. So that's half the board that doesn't appear to have "risen from within the company". Even Kimishima made a career in the banking industry and was brought in to be the CFO of the Pokemon Company in 2000 and worked his way up from there over 15 years.  But hey, keep moving those goal posts about why Nintendo is special. I'm sure you'll come up with something both equally unique and meaningless eventually.

So first it was economics, now I need to educate you on what a straw man is. See a straw man is when you argue against a point someone never actually made. I fail to see how showing you a plausible scenario that might have Nintendo seriously considering switching gears on the whole "hardware" thing to show you have current Wii U and 3DS sales are in fact irrelevant to when such a decision likely could be made, is in fact arguing against a point you never made? Are you are or you not arguing that Nintendo's 80 million in sales between the two is relevant? Because if you are, then there's no straw man to be seen here, at least, not by me.

See that's the thing. You don't need doom for Nintendo to stop making hardware, you just need more lucrative revenue streams that are more worthy of investment than Nintendo making hardware. That's why I keep harping on profits. That's why I keep pointing out that Nintendo is in fact beholden to its share holders. Nintendo, like any other publicly traded company is driven by profit. The only thing Nintendo needs in order to stop making hardware is to be convinced that it is more profitable not to. That's it.

As for me having a problem with Nintendo making hardware? First off, thanks for telling me what I think. You definitely know more about my thoughts than I do. Secondly, what? So the idea of Nintendo making hardware is directly related to the hardware they currently make? No. Not at all. I don't want Nintendo to stop making hardware, I just want them to start making hardware that I want to buy. I want them to make different hardware than what they are making. That is far and away different from wanting them to go third party.

But here you are saying my arguments are being driven by emotions, as if you're somehow being objective? Please. You just falsely argued that Nintendo was majority owned from within.  Now you're arguing that the Nintendo board of directors is somehow special and different from other corporations when you have absolutely no basis to make that claim. You just see Nintendo as a special company, and therefore the people within it are special people, and I get that, but surely you can admit that such a stance is a blatant and obvious bias.