Lots of bashing for the belief of God....

[trestres]

Final-Fan said:

trestres said:

Everyone knows deep inside them what really is wrong and what is right. That's what differs us from animals, you cannot place a human being at the same level of an animal. Animals look for their wellbeing in every action, us humans can for example go through suffering to avoid a major harm. Animals behave like you said.

Germans had the option to avoid killing those "millions of jews" (people still believe what the media says?) and some did, but most of those who didn't and killed the jews, didn't do it out of fear, but because they had been deceived. Much like the masses were deceived in the USA so that the country could join WW2. People mostly do things because of ignorance rather than fear, because they believe in, they have faith in the authority, and that's where us humans fail at being so naive.

But you said that we do things for our wellbeing, define that wellbeing? How is it definded then? Isn't it subjective as well?

Sorry, I would write a bigger response, perhaps later, but I don't have much time right now.

Vagabond didn't say anything about the Germans obeying out of fear.  You clearly didn't look up the Milgram experiment he mentioned. 

Your little talk about humans vs. animals was completely irrelevant to Vagabond's post as far as I can see. 

Now, your question about how we define what the well-being of society is, on the other hand, is a great question.  It's an important question.  But it's not a harder question, and IMO it's an easier one, than "what is the correct set of absolute good/evil deeds (regardless of benefit/harm to society)?"  Because no matter what you say about what we all know "deep inside", people have been fighting over different opinions of that for millennia. 

Lastly, there's a subject I want to approach as carfully and clearly as possible. 
1.  Why did you put "millions of jews" (that were killed by Nazis) in quotation marks?  Does the remark about people still believing the media mean that you don't think millions of Jews were killed by Nazis? 

2.  In what way were "the masses" in the USA deceived as far as going to war in WW2?  (The Holocaust had nothing to do with our going to war.)  Does it have something to do with Pearl Harbor?

Look, one cannot answer such questions without getting into deep trouble or getting called a "revisionist" or "antisemitic". I'd suggest you read and do some research on your own and draw your own conclusions, I won't handle out any links, but please don't hesitate to listen to BOTH sides of the story. What the media of the winning side says will always be half of the truth or perhaps even worse. I've researched out of my own curiosity because the lies that get uncovered daily, the corruption and the use of the masses is just too much. No, I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I've researched and most of my information comes from reliable sources that offer direct quotation from the original documents.

As for the first part of your post, yes, I didn't check on that experiment. Now that I did, there's a viewpoint actually agreeing with what I said about people having faith in authority:

"In his book Irrational Exuberance, Yale Finance Professor Robert Shiller argues that other factors might be partially able to explain the Milgram Experiments:      "[People] have learned that when experts tell them something is all right, it probably is, even if it does not seem so. (In fact, it is worth noting that in this case the experimenter was indeed correct: it was all right to continue giving the 'shocks' — even though most of the subjects did not suspect the reason.)"

Milgram himself provides some anecdotal evidence to support this position. In his book, he quotes an exchange between a subject (Mr. Rensaleer) and the experimenter. The subject had just stopped at 255 V, and the experimenter tried to prod him on by saying: "There is no permanent tissue damage." Mr. Rensaleer answers:      "Yes, but I know what shocks do to you. I’m an electrical engineer, and I have had shocks ... and you get real shook up by them — especially if you know the next one is coming. I’m sorry."

Now about the "deep inside" knowledge. Look, humanity has been evolving both culturally and intelectually througout the years. It's of course reasonable to expect lack of skills, in this case morals, as we go back in time, or if we study civilisations that live under cruel regimes and out of fear.

Freedom, justice and democracy let our inner morality to get better with time. And as we know, the more knowledge we have the less we will be deceived. I think it all comes down to who is guiding us as humans, and what our individual values are. Everyone is responsible and conscious about their actions, but when we get deceived our judging is then tainted with that posion and we will act and take decisions without being completely free (as lies take away freedom, ignorance is a way of slaving people). So perhaps you may ask, why did such and such things happened throughout history? I'd say it's because of the ignorance of people believing that the purpose of their actions was for their well being, but there's always someone behind the curtains who knows the whole truth. That one person is the evil/good one, only those who know all the truth can be judged accordingly. So as you can see morals aren't subjective, but are subject to the amount of information you have.

A quick example: If someone tells you they are going to shoot and kill your mother and you are in front of her and can kill that man to save her would you not do it? And then you realize that wasn't your mother when her face is unveiled and that someone used you to kill another person... Do you believe you are guilty of the MORALITY of the action? I mean you did kill the man but you did it because you were hidden the truth and acted up to the circumstances.