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EricHiggin on 16 April 2019
Machiavellian said:
EricHiggin said:

When you take political leaders to your home instead of the WH to impress them. Definitely a low standards minimalist.

You just pointed out you've done a bunch of reading on it, enough to make an observation that Trump fits the profile of the psychological issue itself, and now you want me to explain it to you?

So is that picture suppose to represent Trump high standards for hiring staff.  Lol, you make this to easy.  Its like playing with a child in their early troll stage.  Once challenge they run out of ideals and resort to nonsense.

So you are saying you have no clue about the DK effect.  Just as I thought, all mouth no action.  When tasked to prove your words you come up short, thanks for playing.  Try better to troll next time.

You asked for proof of high standards. I showed not one but two. How many do you specifically require? Will I get a bone if I show more? Why would you assume If he has standards that high when it comes to those types of things, that his standards for the people that work for him would be much lower? How do you think he paid for all that gold and bling, which likely also helped get him that woman? Lazy, useless, good for nothing staff? That's the formula for success alright!

No, I'm saying I'm not a dog and your not the master and we're not playing fetch. You brought up the DK effect, and were quite certain Trump falls under it, and I simply pointed out don't be so sure, since the effect itself points out exactly that. If you're so sure someone else falls into it, then quite possibly, you yourself may very well fall into it as well, if not worse. Maybe, maybe not.

Since I pointed this out already, and instead of proving your words, you simply tried to put the onus on me.... Hmm...



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EricHiggin on 16 April 2019
SpokenTruth said:

Trump is the embodiment of the Dunning-Kruger effect.  When you claim to be a stable genius and claim to know more about dozens of random topics than anybody while simultaneously exhibiting the opposite.....that's one end of the Dunning-Kruger effect.  The incompetent claim they are competent and yet are too incompetent to realize they are not competent while on the other end of the spectrum the competent downplay their competence because they are competent enough to recognize how much more their is to know.

If you know a little about something but are unaware just how deep the knowledge base on that subject goes, you are more likely to overstate how much of that subject you are competent in.  If you know a lot about something and are aware of just how deep the knowledge base on that subject goes, you are more likely to understate your are competent in it.

This can be further exacerbated by ego and living/working in an environment that never questions you thereby giving a greater sense of competence.
SpokenTruth said:
EricHiggin said:

You asked for proof of high standards. I showed not one but two. How many do you specifically require? Will I get a bone if I show more? Why would you assume If he has standards that high when it comes to those types of things, that his standards for the people that work for him would be much lower? How do you think he paid for all that gold and bling, which likely also helped get him that woman? Lazy, useless, good for nothing staff? That's the formula for success alright!

No, I'm saying I'm not a dog and your not the master and we're not playing fetch. You brought up the DK effect, and were quite certain Trump falls under it, and I simply pointed out don't be so sure, since the effect itself points out exactly that. If you're so sure someone else falls into it, then quite possibly, you yourself may very well fall into it as well, if not worse. Maybe, maybe not.

Since I pointed this out already, and instead of proving your words, you simply tried to put the onus on me.... Hmm...

Because that's not how it works.  And given your insinuation that that is how it works and it is wrong....

After reading the above explanation... oh right, upsidownville. I guess we all keep forgetting.



EricHiggin on 16 April 2019
the-pi-guy said:
EricHiggin said:

You asked for proof of high standards. I showed not one but two. How many do you specifically require?

You didn't show off proof of high standards, you only showed proof of his ego.  

EricHiggin said:

How do you think he paid for all that gold and bling, which likely also helped get him that woman? Lazy, useless, good for nothing staff? That's the formula for success alright!

Trump started off with a lot of money, and a lot more of his money came from swindling people with his namesake.  

Selling people his name to use on their buildings, can't forget about Trump University.

EricHiggin said:

You brought up the DK effect, and were quite certain Trump falls under it, and I simply pointed out don't be so sure, since the effect itself points out exactly that. If you're so sure someone else falls into it, then quite possibly, you yourself may very well fall into it as well, if not worse. Maybe, maybe not.

Or we could look into what actual experts into a subject are saying:

Hmmm, I don't think climate scientists have ever said that. 

Hmm I don't think so.

Sure people who exhibit the DK effect can incorrectly assess someone else to be exhibiting the effect, but seeing as how Trump often fails to have an even basic understanding of climate change, despite his confidence, all the evidence points to Trump exhibiting the DK effect.  

I played hockey with a guy when I was younger who's dad's life revolved around him. We traveled so we spent a lot more time with them then we'd like. His dad was a talker and like 99% of the time it was about his son and how great he was (he was a pretty good player). His dad was also a jerk and was really tough on him and rarely ever, was what his son did good enough, because his dad always pointed out he could do it better, whether he could or not. Do you think his dad did this out of ego or love? Could it possibly be both or even more? Can two things be part of the same thing at once?

So Trumps 'tiny' staff all suck and everything they do is half a**ed and nobody has ever noticed all these years? He robbed his way to where he is now and he's never paid the price directly, even with Mueller's wide open scope looking into his business? 

They have said the world is cooling and is in major trouble, then warming and in major trouble, then it's just changing a lot, now doomed in 12 years if we don't act immediately. Lets come back to this point in 25 years and see if they were right.

Nobody on the planet has been given a vaccine and ended up with autism afterwards? Not one? Did Trump say the vaccine itself was the cause?

Does that mean everyone who lived during the flat earth times also suffered from the DK effect, or were they all just wrong because they didn't have enough knowledge and understanding? Is Trump always serious? He does clearly meme sometimes, and while sometimes it's just for a laugh, other's it's for a laugh and to make a point.



jason1637 on 16 April 2019

This who argument about Trump's standards is pretty silly imo. Nobody knows about his standards but Trump and those around him. As President he has appointed some good people like Pompeo and Haley and incompetent people like Spicer and Carson. I'd say this standards are a mixed bag, sometimes good and sometimes bad choices.



EricHiggin on 16 April 2019
the-pi-guy said:
EricHiggin said:

I played hockey with a guy when I was younger who's dad's life revolved around him. We traveled so we spent a lot more time with them then we'd like. His dad was a talker and like 99% of the time it was about his son and how great he was (he was a pretty good player). His dad was also a jerk and was really tough on him and rarely ever, was what his son did good enough, because his dad always pointed out he could do it better, whether he could or not. Do you think his dad did this out of ego or love? Could it possibly be both or even more? Can two things be part of the same thing at once?

I have no idea what this story has to do with anything.  

And of course, two things can be part of the same thing at once.  

EricHiggin said:

So Trumps 'tiny' staff all suck and everything they do is half a**ed and nobody has ever noticed all these years? 

No one said any of that.  

EricHiggin said:

 He robbed his way to where he is now and he's never paid the price directly, even with Mueller's wide open scope looking into his business? 

What I said, was that he used his name:

"Trump began licensing deals when he started to see the market going soft in the mid-2000s. Putting his name on projects -- but not owning them -- meant he would not be responsible if the developments failed."

"Investors say the Trump name was a great selling point, and they thought if it was good enough for Trump, it must be a safe bet."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gop-candidate-donald-trump-licenses-his-name-real-estate-lawsuits-over-failed-developments/

Ie, plenty of gains, no risk.  

EricHiggin said:

They have said the world is cooling and is in major trouble, then warming and in major trouble, then it's just changing a lot, now doomed in 12 years if we don't act immediately. Lets come back to this point in 25 years and see if they were right.

Ugh, I'm sick of busting this myth. 

@bold: No they didn't. 

Let's break this down shall we:

Before the 1970's we were spraying and producing large quantities of Carbon Dioxide and Aerosols. 

The Aerosols lead to cooling.  Carbon Dioxide leads to heating.  

During the 1970's a small percentage of scientists suggested that the Aerosols would beat out the carbon dioxide.  Most scientists suggested that Carbon Dioxide would win out. 

If most scientists thought Carbon Dioxide would win out, where do you think the big Ice Age scare come from? 

A:  It wasn't from scientists, it was the media.  

EricHiggin said:

Does that mean everyone who lived during the flat earth times also suffered from the DK effect, or were they all just wrong because they didn't have enough knowledge and understanding? Is Trump always serious? He does clearly meme sometimes, and while sometimes it's just for a laugh, other's it's for a laugh and to make a point.

I what.  

To put it simply: DK = "I know more than the experts".

So yes, 2500 years when people thought the Earth was flat, they suffered from a lack of knowledge and understanding. They didn't suffer from DK effect because there were no experts to know better.  

Not knowing something has nothing to do with DK effect.  


This is the DK effect: 

"I know more about drones than anybody. I know about every form of safety that you can have.",

"I know more about people who get ratings than anyone",

"I know more about ISIS than the generals do.",

"I know more about courts than any human being on Earth."

"Nobody knows more about trade than me."

"Technology — nobody knows more about technology than me"

https://www.axios.com/everything-trump-says-he-knows-more-about-than-anybody-b278b592-cff0-47dc-a75f-5767f42bcf1e.html

You say it's due to Trumps ego. Did you potentially leave anything out?

You left the staff out completely, correct.

How did the Trump name alone become worth so much if it's organization has always been full of low standards people? Isn't that why every restaurant wants to have the golden arches on their roof?

It was the media? You're arguing how terrible DT is by using media, and your blaming the media for improper coverage of climate change?

Why would I legitimately ask if there was nobody around who understood the Earth was round, why didn't they understand it was round? Obviously there would need to be some people around who understood for it to make any sense. A minuscule minority of people who were laughed at, shunned, jailed, and killed because of their 'outrageous' suggestions. Two different understandings at once apparently was unacceptable, yet necessary. So did the flat Earthers all suffer from DK back then?

If a tree falls in the woods and nothing that can measure it's effects is within range to capture and analyze it, does it make a sound? (You can answer this if you like but it's not a serious question)



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EricHiggin on 16 April 2019
SpokenTruth said:
EricHiggin said:

Why would I legitimately ask if there was nobody around who understood the Earth was round, why didn't they understand it was round? Obviously there would need to be some people around who understood for it to make any sense. A minuscule minority of people who were laughed at, shunned, jailed, and killed because of their 'outrageous' suggestions. Two different understandings at once apparently was unacceptable, yet necessary. So did the flat Earthers all suffer from DK back then?

If a tree falls in the woods and nothing that can measure it's effects is within range to capture and analyze it, does it make a sound? (You can answer this if you like but it's not a serious question)

This is twice you've proven that you don't fully grasp what the Dunning-Kruger effect is.  I'll explain it in math terms.

Imagine a given subject has 100 units of data to possibly know.  Those on the lower end of the D-K scale who know 5 units of data but are unaware the remaining 95 exist would inaccurately claim their percentage of overall knowledge on that subject is higher than it truly it.  These people often presume there is only 20 units, for example, and would therefore claim they know 25% of all there is to know on the topic when in fact it's just 5%.

On the other end of the D-K effect, those who know 20 units of data and are aware there is still much more to learn will often claim they know 10% of the topic despite actually knowing 20%.

It's a measure of how much they believe that their knowledge comprises all there is to know. Or, better stated, the meta-cognition of personal knowledge.

And yes, it makes a sound.  Sound is the mechanical oscillation of pressure waves through a medium and exists irrespective of a receptive audience.

Thanks for answering the question. It explains everything.

The correct answer is nobody can know for sure unless it can be directly measured and understood.

Ever heard of Schrodingers cat?



EricHiggin on 16 April 2019
the-pi-guy said:
EricHiggin said:

Why would I legitimately ask if there was nobody around who understood the Earth was round, why didn't they understand it was round? Obviously there would need to be some people around who understood for it to make any sense. A minuscule minority of people who were laughed at, shunned, jailed, and killed because of their 'outrageous' suggestions. Two different understandings at once apparently was unacceptable, yet necessary. So did the flat Earthers all suffer from DK back then?

I have no idea what you're talking about here. 

A minuscule minority of people who were laughed at, shunned, jailed, and killed because of their 'outrageous' suggestions. => who are you talking about?

So did the flat Earthers all suffer from DK back then? => I have no idea what time frame you are talking about.  

If you can't follow this conversation point there's no point in continuing.



EricHiggin on 16 April 2019
the-pi-guy said:
EricHiggin said:

Thanks for answering the question. It explains everything.

The correct answer is nobody can know for sure unless it can be directly measured and understood.

Ever heard of Schrodingers cat?

The weirdness of Quantum Mechanics has little bearing on what we observe on the large scale.  

I assure you, the Moon is still  there even when no one is looking at it.  

Just like how in the time of flat Earth the overwhelming majority of people would assure you that the Earth was indeed flat. So much so they just might throw you in jail or kill you for not believing them?



EricHiggin on 16 April 2019
SpokenTruth said:
EricHiggin said:

Thanks for answering the question. It explains everything.

The correct answer is nobody can know for sure unless it can be directly measured and understood.

Ever heard of Schrodingers cat?

Are you really trying to bring in quantum mechanics and superposition to a discussion about meta-cognition?

You're the one who answered the question when I clearly stated it didn't need to be answered because it was quite off topic.



EricHiggin on 17 April 2019
the-pi-guy said:
EricHiggin said:

Just like how in the time of flat Earth the overwhelming majority of people would assure you that the Earth was indeed flat. So much so they just might throw you in jail or kill you for not believing them?

The world was known to be spherical for thousands of years.  Galileo wasn't thrown in jail for claiming it was spherical.  Christopher Columbus and all his contemporaries knew the Earth was spherical.  
It's a myth that people thought the Earth was flat until Columbus.  

Galileo was thrown in jail for trying to mix his religious beliefs with his scientific reasoning.  

But sure, let's go with that. 

In an age, where only a few people know the Earth is moving, you're wondering where the DK effect is.  

If most of the people who studied the Earth knew it was moving and everyone else thought it was wrong, then the people would be an example of the DK effect.  

Someone can know something that an expert doesn't, but it isn't likely that someone would know something that no expert knows.  

People figure things out all the time who aren't experts. Lot's of those things even end up lost to time. Being an expert may make it more likely you should be able to come up with certain answers or new idea's, but there's no guarantee's. Especially with the communication system today. People who end up better than many others who sat at home and learned on the internet instead of spending years in school and loads of cash. Who's the smart one there? Don't the experts say you really need more education with the 'right' people teaching and in the proper environment?

Also, who deems experts, experts? Many times you have to prove many things before you're considered an expert, but if you were right the entire time, shouldn't you have been an expert from the beginning? If those experts didn't know you were right, why are they considered the experts?

Since others seem so sure Trump suffers from DK, and DK points out that those type of people may very well be the one's who aren't aware their DK'd, don't you think it's possible that it's all true? Maybe everyone in the conversation could possibly effected to some degree?

SpokenTruth said:
EricHiggin said:

You're the one who answered the question when I clearly stated it didn't need to be answered because it was quite off topic.

You asked a question about sound and then...

Wait....you brought up Schrodinger's Cat as some weird metaphor about sound - whether it exists or not without anyone to hear it?

What the...? It's like Poe's Law showed up with Schrodinger's Cat to a party to troll everyone, and Heisenberg wasn't sure if he was coming or going but it was all relative to Einstein. 

I'm done.

Back to US politics.

Ya. Is the cat dead or not? If only there was a device in the concealed box that could capture and analyze its heartbeat and brainwaves. Guess we just have to open it up and see to know for sure. 

I agree.