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Forums - Politics Discussion - Official 2020 US Election: Democratic Party Discussion

HylianSwordsman on 20 January 2020
Moren said:

Although I believe Bernie can win the Midwest, Trump is going to campaign heavily on foreign policy in Florida.
Bernie's positions (as well as the way in which the Trump campaign ads will portray him, fairly or not) is not going to sit well with the Hispanic Population.

With the Cuban population, you mean. Bernie is well liked by Latinos, but I suspect the strategy you outline here could maybe work only in Florida with the large Cuban population, who think and vote significantly differently than the rest of the Hispanic population. But they already frequently vote Republican, so I still say it's not a surefire strategy for Trump. The Cubans have begun polarizing by generation too, just like the rest of the country, as the younger generation that didn't flee Castro has begun to lose the instinctive revulsion to left wing politics.



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Moren on 20 January 2020
HylianSwordsman said:
Moren said:

Although I believe Bernie can win the Midwest, Trump is going to campaign heavily on foreign policy in Florida.
Bernie's positions (as well as the way in which the Trump campaign ads will portray him, fairly or not) is not going to sit well with the Hispanic Population.

With the Cuban population, you mean. Bernie is well liked by Latinos, but I suspect the strategy you outline here could maybe work only in Florida with the large Cuban population, who think and vote significantly differently than the rest of the Hispanic population. But they already frequently vote Republican, so I still say it's not a surefire strategy for Trump. The Cubans have begun polarizing by generation too, just like the rest of the country, as the younger generation that didn't flee Castro has begun to lose the instinctive revulsion to left wing politics.

Florida's Hispanic Population also has heavy South American ancestry (3rd largest group) and a lot of naturalized citizens where the same advertising and message can turn voters against Sanders.

Especially in Florida, where every vote counts.



jason1637 on 20 January 2020

I'd still taken Biden any day over a socialist.



Bofferbrauer2 on 20 January 2020
Mnementh said:
haxxiy said:

Can it, though? That sort of dynamic quite didn't work out in Australia and the UK recently... or France and Germany, and most of Eastern Europe. Also, Russia and Japan. The examples I could mention go on and on. Of course, each country has its own set or rules, but do they completely escape from what's happening in the international political context?

Bernie has its own set of hurdles to overcome as the nominee. For once, kiss Florida goodbye and pray for the Rust Belt to deliver. Secondly, to pitch a good economy against a true democratic socialist who admits he'll increase middle-class taxes sounds exactly like what Trump would want if he's not running against a moderate. He isn't decrying injustice against Bernie because he wants him to fail after all.

I think some people underestimate the appeal of inertia in politics - how many people in the middle believe, right or wrong, that they need just a little something to change in their lives for things to be fine.

Edit - the same thing applies for all the White hillbillies who would despite any initiative about infrastructure or education in the rural areas and want only someone to deal with the nasy immigrants or own the libs or whatever.

You have to understand that Bernie Sanders positions are centrist in other countries. In germany there is health care for everyone for instance and this is not in the least attacked by chancellor Merkel. In international standards america is extremely right-wing, that includes even democrats. So a left-wing populist for american standards is pretty centrist in most western countries and often someone like that is head of the government.

Well, in most of Europe he would probably be a Social Democrat, maybe a Christian Democrat in some countries, but that would push him quite far to the left on some issues in such a party. Merkel not railing against healthcare is not a sign for centrism from Bernie, as this is really just one policy out of several dozens, some of which would be to far left for the Christian Democrats on their own, though feasible in a coalition government.

But you're right on american politics. I generally describe the democratic party as center-right and the GOP as right-wing (not far right or anything like that, though it attracts those types, too, since they don't have their own party with winner takes all), with the libertarians also as center-right and the Green Party USA as centist to center-left.

My guess is that this is an effect from the two red scares (one after the Red October in 1917 and a much bigger one after WW2) which pushed the US further and further to the right, plus Reagan's demonizing of the government, not realizing that due to the horseshoe effect, the non-economic policies actually getting closer to what the soviets had than what they were before the red scare during FDR's time.



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Cerebralbore101 on 20 January 2020

If anybody has time, I suggest they read American Amnesia. 

The book goes into how the Republican party went from moderates in the 60's to the extremists they are today. It also details the tactics the Republicans have used for decades to undermine multiple government programs. Anybody who reads this book will be able to see clearly how, and why centrists like Biden, and Hillary have effectively allowed Republicans to get their way in the long run. 



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uran10 on 20 January 2020
Bofferbrauer2 said:
Mnementh said:

You have to understand that Bernie Sanders positions are centrist in other countries. In germany there is health care for everyone for instance and this is not in the least attacked by chancellor Merkel. In international standards america is extremely right-wing, that includes even democrats. So a left-wing populist for american standards is pretty centrist in most western countries and often someone like that is head of the government.

Well, in most of Europe he would probably be a Social Democrat, maybe a Christian Democrat in some countries, but that would push him quite far to the left on some issues in such a party. Merkel not railing against healthcare is not a sign for centrism from Bernie, as this is really just one policy out of several dozens, some of which would be to far left for the Christian Democrats on their own, though feasible in a coalition government.

But you're right on american politics. I generally describe the democratic party as center-right and the GOP as right-wing (not far right or anything like that, though it attracts those types, too, since they don't have their own party with winner takes all), with the libertarians also as center-right and the Green Party USA as centist to center-left.

My guess is that this is an effect from the two red scares (one after the Red October in 1917 and a much bigger one after WW2) which pushed the US further and further to the right, plus Reagan's demonizing of the government, not realizing that due to the horseshoe effect, the non-economic policies actually getting closer to what the soviets had than what they were before the red scare during FDR's time.

I just want to say one thing to this and that's that you're giving the republican party and even the dem party a bit too much credit imo. You're more spot on with the dems, but I'd honestly call them more of a economically right wing party, while being culturally left wing (atleast on the surface), the republicans however, are legitimately far right wingers. I'm not talking everyday republicans walking the streets, the citizens. I'm talking look at their elected members. Outside of Rand Paul (who is pretty bad on domestic issues), and Mike Lee, the rest of the party is well...... yea.



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haxxiy on 20 January 2020
Mnementh said:
haxxiy said:

You have to understand that Bernie Sanders positions are centrist in other countries. In germany there is health care for everyone for instance and this is not in the least attacked by chancellor Merkel. In international standards america is extremely right-wing, that includes even democrats. So a left-wing populist for american standards is pretty centrist in most western countries and often someone like that is head of the government.

It's not. Like I said, political and social inertia are huge factors and the reality of each country needs to be adressed.

For instance, is Bolsonaro to the left of Sanders because he defends and wants to expand universal healthcare and basic income? Is the Danish left-wing government to the right of Trump because of its position on immigration? Or Macron, who is a centrist and implementing the sort of labour and economic reform you would expect from the average Republican governor. Existing social institutions play a huge role on what's politically feasible and what isn't.

Besides, even if what you said about the West was true, that's still a tiny 10-15% sliver of the world's population. Billions in Asia and Africa live in countries where both left and right wing parties equally discriminate against people of the wrong religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation, and couldn't care less about the environment in their way to economic growth because England did it first, or something.



 

 

 

 

 

ruior on 20 January 2020
LurkerJ said:
ruior said:

Who do you consider to be "mainstream media" and on the other side "non-mainstream media"? Thanks & cheers!

Heya.

A very difficult question to answer. MSM has become an overused term but I personally use it whenever journalists behave purposefully dense, or whenever a news network don't make big deals about what should be a big deal and vice versa. As for news sources, I use news aggregators and add as many news networks from different countries as possible, including French, German, Russian, Qatar, Saudi & Turkish news, and recently I have been following Chinese news as well. You get different perspectives on the same story.

You won't get the TheIntercept_ on any of the aggregators though, so that's one website I need to bookmark and follow: https://theintercept.com/about/

Apple News had a rough relationship with RT Russia, 

ZeroHedge is worth a read: https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/how-us-wages-war-prop-dollar, Globalresearch is another website I run into frequently: https://www.globalresearch.ca/hillary-emails-reveal-nato-killed-gaddafi-to-stop-libyan-creation-of-gold-backed-currency/5594742

There are also many independent political commentators on youtube that I follow, they highlight BS that airs on the MSM and add some valuable perspective to incomplete headlines, it's what they do for a living after all, so you can expect some political enlightenment. The downside of these youtube channels is that the commentators can be sensational. Nonetheless, here is a list if you're interested:

Secular Talk has been one of the few channels that tries to stick to logic & principles whenever he dissects any piece of news, Jimmy Dore is a bore-fest but he has his moments of brilliance, Krystal Balls from Rising/The Hill is a new fave, Dave Rubin has some really interesting guests sometimes but it's not always political, I stopped following the young turks because they disgusted me with their biased russiagate reporting. On the right side of the aisle, you have the Daily Caller, Tipping Point with Liz Wheeler, the controversial Ann Coulter, Akkad daily is rarely a good show to watch, as he's stuck in 2016 with the identity politics BS (a waste of talent, because he can formulate good arguments), Mark Steyn has some interesting guests on, Ben Shapiro might be your cup of tea. I guess if you look them up, youtube's algorithms will start juggling you between them and many more of the ones I forgot to mention. Keep in mind that I don't believe everything I read or link, I also acknowledge the fact that any of the above youtubers is capable of doing and saying unbelievably stupid things but so am I. 

Not sure if any of the above answers your question 

Edit: Economists are worth your time as well, check out the beautiful Micheal Hudson on youtube or read his articles: https://michael-hudson.com/2020/01/america-escalates-its-democratic-oil-war-in-the-near-east/

and speaking of balanced budgets & deficits: https://youtu.be/cCsxKy6Lbvg

Thanks, it gives me some references. I already know most of them. I also see David Pakman that is on the other side of the coin, let's say. 

But I like to check and balance him with Shapiro for example and vice versa.

I see a lot of talk about the "mainstream media" but low on what are the good media sources so is good to see some light on the end of that "dark tunnel", let's say.

When you say "Apple News had a rough relationship with RT Russia, " you are saying that that is good or bad to the Apple News side? You think RT Russia is a good news source?




tsogud on 20 January 2020
jason1637 said:
I'd still taken Biden any day over a socialist.

What are your objections to socialism? And why do you prefer capitalism? Also even though Bernie is a socialist his policies are effectively social democratic policies, anywhere else in the world he'd be center-left. Every other developed nation has what Bernie is fighting for, and they're happy with it.



 

Moren on 20 January 2020



I'm loving this. Without Bernie to rein them in for the next couple weeks, his radical staffers are going to go completely unhinged right before Iowa.