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Forums - Politics Discussion - Official 2020 US Election: Democratic Party Discussion

jason1637 on 19 September 2019
the-pi-guy said:
jason1637 said:

I was there it did not look like 20,000 people. Probably half of that imo.

Not that I care that much, but how do you know?

How do you look at a crowd and basically instinctively know the difference between 10,000 and 20,000 people?

I've been to packed Basketball and Wrestling events at MSG and BC and their capacity is like 19k and 17k iirc. Her crowd was not nearly as big as these packed stadiums. They had an rsvp but most people I talked to showed up and since it was in the park there would be no way for her campaign to count the people.



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haxxiy on 19 September 2019

It's not younger, but older people who are always under-represented in the polls... specially online ones. Case in point, any election in Florida or Wisconsin. Or most midterms or special elections. Of course, this is not exclusive to the US, and also happens across Europe and other countries where voting is optional.



 

 

 

 

 

jason1637 on 19 September 2019

Warren keeps dodging the question on if taxes will go up for the middle class under the version of MAA. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/09/19/question-elizabeth-warren-wont-answer/
Atleast Bernie was upfront aabout answering this question.



HylianSwordsman on 19 September 2019
haxxiy said:

It's not younger, but older people who are always under-represented in the polls... specially online ones. Case in point, any election in Florida or Wisconsin. Or most midterms or special elections. Of course, this is not exclusive to the US, and also happens across Europe and other countries where voting is optional.

I was wondering how old you were that you would say something that nuts. Then I checked your profile. Sure enough, you're in your 20s, but damn, the thread's biggest Biden supporter is not even American. Why do you want another country to have a centrist so badly? The polls show that Biden isn't the only one who can beat Trump, so that can't be your reason for supporting him, so you must actually be a neoliberal. A neoliberal in freaking Brazil.



Jumpin on 19 September 2019
uran10 said:
Jumpin said:

And here with this guy, we have the sort of Bernie fans that are no better than Right-Wing concern trolls. The kind of person who we need a lot less of in democratic systems. Cult of Personalities are cancer to democracy, and whether this brand of cancer favours a right-winger or a left-winger, all cancer is toxic to the system and has through history proven to be destructive in its ends to the progressive movement as a whole.

It's posts like this that make Bernie's cult of personality indistinguishable from Republican concern trolls. The reality is Elizabeth Warren's record is that of a progressive which includes: Warren's updated Glass-Steagall bill, crushing corrupt Wall Street execs, and the establishment of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. If the media is a fan of that, then good for her and the progressive movement: unfortunate for you and the conservative movement or Bernie Bro movement, to whichever one you belong.

If it's the Bernie Bro movement, the irony is Bernie Sanders is also a fan of Elizabeth Warren

Beautiful conspiracy theory, one so far from reality that you couldn't find any evidence to support it, and as such, we can dismiss it without evidence. As far as polls, where's your proof on this? If anything, it's the other way around since older people tend to be the ones more likely to vote.

Also, when you considered Yang being under-represented, I was with you since he is rising in the polls, and his support will inevitably be more significant in the end: but Tulsi Gabbard, now I know you're full of crap - she's a weak speaker, has no unique positions (her main thing is get the troops out of the middle east, which was so ordinary that it was also Obama's thing) and otherwise unremarkable aside from her military service. I should probably stop here, but I'll go on.

If all of what you're saying is true, then why are you so frightened that you have to post a whole lot of fanboy/concern-trolling bullshit?

Also, where is your evidence?

You just made that up. First of all, we see that the top #2 pick for Elizabeth Warren supporters is Bernie Sanders. It's not like you didn't know this since it's in this thread — the exact opposite of what you claim. 

"Stealing Bernie's ideas."

Are you for real? Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren both belong to the progressive movement.

Progressivism is NOT something that was invented by Bernie Sanders. It dates back to at least the 18th century (17th if you include the English Civil War and Restoration England as part of the current day movement in the Anglo-sphere alone - which did have a profound effect on the rest of Western Civilization). The majority of the foundation and policy directions established through the 19th and early 20th century.

It sounds to me that you have been eating a lot of horse shit. 

You call her a warmonger; but if that is true, she's a poor one considering she hasn't declared a single war except for the one against corruption on Wall Street - which I fully support.

What bills did she steal from Bernie? You haven't provided any examples.

She is using the leftover money to continue her campaign. That is entirely ordinary for all types of political campaigns, including parties with strict grassroots principles. Are you suggesting that Bernie has refunded money from past campaigns? Provide evidence for this. I am not taking your word for it.

Also, she's a social democrat, not a neoliberal. Learn the difference, kid.

Now the question is what you are and why you posted such a horseshit and conspiracy theory filled rant. Are you a neoconservative concern-troll or the kind of Bernie-Bro/Bernie-Boy (who, ironically, isn't actually in favour of the same things Bernie is in support of - such as Elizabeth Warren's success)?

Learn something about the progressive movement and its history. No matter what you right-wingers/Bernie Bros may think, this isn't something that Bernie Sanders invented five years ago; this is a movement that has been going on for centuries. You may claim to be a supporter of Bernie Sanders, but (whether by choice or through ignorance) you are no friend to the values of the progressive movement to which he dedicates himself.

Let's start with the personality. I do not give a rats ass about who the person is, I care about policy and no other candidates besides Bernie and Tulsi support what I want, or do I trust what I want. Don't come with that to me. I'm populist left, that's it.

Now on to warren's record. I know of it, I've watched and seen it and let me tell you, she hasn't done as much as you think. She's basically wagged her finger at wall street bankers and called it fighting. She's called them out then essentially done nothing. Oh and here we are, the bernie bro smear. Did you know that over 50% of his supporters are female and that his base is incredibly diverse when you're coming with this? okay thanks bye with this. And no sir, she's not a progressive champion, she is a neoliberal plain and simple. She's obama like.

Okay On to the tulsi thing, I'm telling you she has a lot of supporters and a lot of berners are supporting her, So I don't know where you're coming from with this but I follow Tulsi very clearly and her main thing is foreign policy. Its not just bringing the troops home, its about ending the wars and supporting diplomatic relations. She's also very good domestically and she's already went on record for election integrity, she introduced a bill to congress, I forgot the name but It was along the lines of the safe elections act. Would have ensured paper ballots be used as backup during the elections amidst the russiagate BS. She also has the off act which btw, is better than AOC's Green new deal so yea, Tulsi's support is real. She's also supporting other progressive policies so lol no. I want you to pay attention to Tulsi's events. She fills them up, sometimes she has to move to bigger venues so when I'm telling you she has more support than these polls say I mean she does. Yang may be pushing it a bit but he's also an outsider which is why the polling most likely doesn't represent him properly. We went through this polling song and dance in 2016, anyone remember how that ended? Oh yea, bernie outperformed the polls.

Next one: Yes stealing bernie's ideas. Every single thing that bernie has introduced warren has taken and acted as if it was her creation over this election cycle. The only one she hasn't claimed is M4A cause she's wishy washy as all hell on it. Go through the legislation both have introduced before the election cycle, go back and listen to old bernie and old warren. Bernie has been light years ahead of her on basically everything, I mean he wasn't a republican throughout the Regan years like somebody and bought all that free market crap so yea. When I say she's stealing Bern's ideas I mean look at their policies and what they say. Bernie/Tulsi says something.... then warren parrots. pay attention, this even goes into talking points. (its still funny cause her stance is to the right of bernie and her policies reflect that and she's a neoliberal still. Better than the rest sure, but she's still in that category)

Warmonger.... this one is easy. HER PRO WAR VOTING RECORD. She's also voted to increase the military budget as well, and have you listened to her on Iran, Venezuela etc? Bro... fr When I say she's a neoliberal war hawk, all you have to do is watch her votes. This one is the clearest.

The only Social Democrats in this race are Bernie and Tulsi, their policies and record speak for themselves. You clearly need to do more research into warren and into Tulsi cause you've missed a lot of stances. Also no, I don't think Bernie invented anything I'm pretty sure he's just left of centre on the global scale so when I say she steals ideas I mean she literally takes the stuff he has been pushing over his 40 year career, act like she came up with this wonderful "plan" and pushes a half baked, watered down version of it.

M4A: she's wishy washy

Cancelling student debt: watered down
Like I can go on.

Instead of being so condescending maybe YOU should be the one doing research into their records cause you just said a WHOLE LOT OF MISINFORMATION.

Tulsi's pull out the troops thing is so unoriginal that it was also Obama's thing. I know the truth hurts, but there's nothing very remarkable about her. Also, I am not going to take your word for it that she's one of the most popular candidates and that the media is somehow suppressing this.

If you think only Bernie and Tulsi are social democrats than you most certainly lack an understanding of what social democracy is. I'd like to hear your definition of it; this should be good for a laugh =)

You claim she's a warmonger, but the evidence you are providing is not evidence of warmongering. You can't say someone intends to crash their car because they buy crash insurance.
Warmonger definition from the Miriam Webster Dictionary: "one who urges or attempts to stir up war."
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/warmonger

Again, Bernie Sanders DID NOT invent progressivism, period. This is not an opinion; this is not misinformation; this is a fact. You can read a brief overview of it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism

I'm sorry if you think it's misinformation when I say that Bernie didn't invent progressivism. The only reason you think he did is that you are beyond delusional and lack much knowledge on the subject of progressivism or its history. So I sincerely believe you are a typical right-wing concern troll or an extraordinarily ignorant Bernie fanboy.

It's not by design that you find my criticisms of your attacks condescending, that's all on you and your high level of sensitivity. You shouldn't write such ridiculously false attack posts that you can neither back up nor handle it when you receive criticism for them.

--------------------------------------------

The irony of defending against these wild Bernie cult-of-personality types (like the guy above) is that I like Bernie Sanders quite a lot. But I do find their segment of his so-called fanbase to be ludicrously ignorant, and I don't think progressives should tolerate them. They're counterproductive to the worldwide progressive movement. They always repeat some conspiracy theory with the "corporate media," indicating they probably watch some youtube jackass like Ben Shapiro or Jimmy Dore.

Bernie didn't ask for this cult of personality, and I don't think he would want anyone in his support base to be this way. The mentality is a cancer upon democracy. When it becomes acceptable, the gateway for demagogues opens. Anyone who is an actual progressive should recognize this, and mercilessly stomp out that mentality whenever it rears its ugly head. It doesn't matter if that cancer favours Trump or if it favours Bernie, all cancer is bad.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

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uran10 on 19 September 2019
Jumpin said:
uran10 said:

Let's start with the personality. I do not give a rats ass about who the person is, I care about policy and no other candidates besides Bernie and Tulsi support what I want, or do I trust what I want. Don't come with that to me. I'm populist left, that's it.

Now on to warren's record. I know of it, I've watched and seen it and let me tell you, she hasn't done as much as you think. She's basically wagged her finger at wall street bankers and called it fighting. She's called them out then essentially done nothing. Oh and here we are, the bernie bro smear. Did you know that over 50% of his supporters are female and that his base is incredibly diverse when you're coming with this? okay thanks bye with this. And no sir, she's not a progressive champion, she is a neoliberal plain and simple. She's obama like.

Okay On to the tulsi thing, I'm telling you she has a lot of supporters and a lot of berners are supporting her, So I don't know where you're coming from with this but I follow Tulsi very clearly and her main thing is foreign policy. Its not just bringing the troops home, its about ending the wars and supporting diplomatic relations. She's also very good domestically and she's already went on record for election integrity, she introduced a bill to congress, I forgot the name but It was along the lines of the safe elections act. Would have ensured paper ballots be used as backup during the elections amidst the russiagate BS. She also has the off act which btw, is better than AOC's Green new deal so yea, Tulsi's support is real. She's also supporting other progressive policies so lol no. I want you to pay attention to Tulsi's events. She fills them up, sometimes she has to move to bigger venues so when I'm telling you she has more support than these polls say I mean she does. Yang may be pushing it a bit but he's also an outsider which is why the polling most likely doesn't represent him properly. We went through this polling song and dance in 2016, anyone remember how that ended? Oh yea, bernie outperformed the polls.

Next one: Yes stealing bernie's ideas. Every single thing that bernie has introduced warren has taken and acted as if it was her creation over this election cycle. The only one she hasn't claimed is M4A cause she's wishy washy as all hell on it. Go through the legislation both have introduced before the election cycle, go back and listen to old bernie and old warren. Bernie has been light years ahead of her on basically everything, I mean he wasn't a republican throughout the Regan years like somebody and bought all that free market crap so yea. When I say she's stealing Bern's ideas I mean look at their policies and what they say. Bernie/Tulsi says something.... then warren parrots. pay attention, this even goes into talking points. (its still funny cause her stance is to the right of bernie and her policies reflect that and she's a neoliberal still. Better than the rest sure, but she's still in that category)

Warmonger.... this one is easy. HER PRO WAR VOTING RECORD. She's also voted to increase the military budget as well, and have you listened to her on Iran, Venezuela etc? Bro... fr When I say she's a neoliberal war hawk, all you have to do is watch her votes. This one is the clearest.

The only Social Democrats in this race are Bernie and Tulsi, their policies and record speak for themselves. You clearly need to do more research into warren and into Tulsi cause you've missed a lot of stances. Also no, I don't think Bernie invented anything I'm pretty sure he's just left of centre on the global scale so when I say she steals ideas I mean she literally takes the stuff he has been pushing over his 40 year career, act like she came up with this wonderful "plan" and pushes a half baked, watered down version of it.

M4A: she's wishy washy

Cancelling student debt: watered down
Like I can go on.

Instead of being so condescending maybe YOU should be the one doing research into their records cause you just said a WHOLE LOT OF MISINFORMATION.

Tulsi's pull out the troops thing is so unoriginal that it was also Obama's thing. I know the truth hurts, but there's nothing very remarkable about her. Also, I am not going to take your word for it that she's one of the most popular candidates and that the media is somehow suppressing this.

If you think only Bernie and Tulsi are social democrats than you most certainly lack an understanding of what social democracy is. I'd like to hear your definition of it; this should be good for a laugh =)

You claim she's a warmonger, but the evidence you are providing is not evidence of warmongering. You can't say someone intends to crash their car because they buy crash insurance.
Warmonger definition from the Miriam Webster Dictionary: "one who urges or attempts to stir up war."
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/warmonger

Again, Bernie Sanders DID NOT invent progressivism, period. This is not an opinion; this is not misinformation; this is a fact. You can read a brief overview of it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism

I'm sorry if you think it's misinformation when I say that Bernie didn't invent progressivism. The only reason you think he did is that you are beyond delusional and lack much knowledge on the subject of progressivism or its history. So I sincerely believe you are a typical right-wing concern troll or an extraordinarily ignorant Bernie fanboy.

It's not by design that you find my criticisms of your attacks condescending, that's all on you and your high level of sensitivity. You shouldn't write such ridiculously false attack posts that you can neither back up nor handle it when you receive criticism for them.

--------------------------------------------

The irony of defending against these wild Bernie cult-of-personality types (like the guy above) is that I like Bernie Sanders quite a lot. But I do find their segment of his so-called fanbase to be ludicrously ignorant, and I don't think progressives should tolerate them. They're counterproductive to the worldwide progressive movement. They always repeat some conspiracy theory with the "corporate media," indicating they probably watch some youtube jackass like Ben Shapiro or Jimmy Dore.

Bernie didn't ask for this cult of personality, and I don't think he would want anyone in his support base to be this way. The mentality is a cancer upon democracy. When it becomes acceptable, the gateway for demagogues opens. Anyone who is an actual progressive should recognize this, and mercilessly stomp out that mentality whenever it rears its ugly head. It doesn't matter if that cancer favours Trump or if it favours Bernie, all cancer is bad.

I honestly feel like you did not read a thing I said. You're literally ignoring what I said when it comes to warren stealing bernie's idea to reiterate your debunked point. seriously. Did I once state the bernie invented progressivism or is that just the one point you're clinging too to try to hold some high ground where there is none?

re-read my tulsi section, or go read her web site or actually follow her politics cause you clearly ignored what I said again. And its not about the personality. I literally said Idgaf. If I was all about bernie I wouldn't be here defending tulsi as well. You're literally ignoring my points to try to act like I'm some cultish follower of sanders because I think warren is a snake and not a social democrat. I'm sorry her neoliberal hawkish ways disqualify her from being one. As of now I'm definitely not gonna respond to you again because you clearly have an agenda and for that to work you mischaracterise me and I aint dealing with that.

Thanks for literally ignoring my points, if you're gonna come back, please come with some actual responses and some policy.



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tsogud on 19 September 2019
jason1637 said:
Warren keeps dodging the question on if taxes will go up for the middle class under the version of MAA. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/09/19/question-elizabeth-warren-wont-answer/
Atleast Bernie was upfront aabout answering this question.

Yeah, I don't get why she's being coy with that. Didn't Steven Colbert even say to her that it's okay to admit it because it's necessity for M4A is completely defendable? She should at least be intellectually honest about it like Bernie. Paying a little more in taxes isn't bad, especially when it ensures everyone has access to quality healthcare and overall costs go down.

Last edited by tsogud - on 19 September 2019

 

Moren on 19 September 2019
HylianSwordsman said:
haxxiy said:

It's not younger, but older people who are always under-represented in the polls... specially online ones. Case in point, any election in Florida or Wisconsin. Or most midterms or special elections. Of course, this is not exclusive to the US, and also happens across Europe and other countries where voting is optional.

I was wondering how old you were that you would say something that nuts. Then I checked your profile. Sure enough, you're in your 20s, but damn, the thread's biggest Biden supporter is not even American. Why do you want another country to have a centrist so badly? The polls show that Biden isn't the only one who can beat Trump, so that can't be your reason for supporting him, so you must actually be a neoliberal. A neoliberal in freaking Brazil.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa. I take offense to this. I'm the thread's biggest Biden supporter.

Regardless, it's a pretty cheap thing to go after him personally. For all you know, he emigrated.



Moren on 19 September 2019

I legit don't understand why Tulsi would get a following.

Sanders is also anti-war, and emphasizes going after the Arms and Defense industry, and spending the money in America instead.

Unlike Gabbard, he has ethics, and morals, and compassion, and doesn't repeat talking politics points from RT.

If Tulsi stood a chance at beating Bernie you can bet they'd throw out "ESTABLISHMENT PICK".

Last edited by Moren - on 19 September 2019

HylianSwordsman on 19 September 2019

So I've been looking at Bernie's housing plan some more: https://berniesanders.com/issues/housing-all/

In addition to all the new affordable and mixed income housing it builds, here's a few other interesting points:
1. Protection for renters: The plan caps rent increases to the higher of 3% or 1.5 times the Consumer Price Index, with waivers only available if landlords can demonstrate an investment in the property that improves the living conditions accordingly. This is a national cap but states and cities can pass stronger ones if they like. The plan also requires "just-cause" for evictions, so that landlords can't evict someone arbitrarily or vindictively. A bunch of other stuff for renters as well but I thought these were the most interesting points.

2. Fighting against gentrification: The plan has some measures to combat gentrification, mostly summed up as removing exclusionary and restricive zoning laws and replace them with laws designed to promote the integration of communities across race, socioeconomic status, etc., as determined by a new office in the Department of Housing and Urban Development that works directly with the affected cities. The funding for the housing in the bill is actually contingent upon whether the projects will actually produce this integration, as well as upon public transportation access, so as to reduce congestion in cities. In addition to the zoning technique, the plan also fights gentrification by putting a 25% tax on properties sold within 5 years of purchase with no owner in them, dubbed the House Flipping Tax, a 2% Empty House Tax on any owned properties that are vacant (to incentivize more properties being put on the market), and "circuit breakers" on property taxes that freeze the property taxes as the property values in a gentrifying neighborhoods rise (to prevent long-time residents from getting priced out of their own home over property tax).

3. Helping First-time Homebuyers: Since millions of people now feel like they'll never be able to afford to own a home (myself included), the plan includes funding for a first-time homebuyers assistance program, to the tune of $8 billion dollars spread across the HUD (for urban homebuyers) and the USDA (for rural homebuyers).

4. Other Neat Stuff: The plan makes data on evictions, rent increases, and safety violations available to the public for large landlords. It regulates mortgages to prevent them from being mass sold to vulture funds, increases enforcement of consumer protections against predatory loan sharks, and assists those who are still struggling with mortgages as a result of the 2008 crash. Federal funding for projects under the bill prioritizes those projects that have walkable communities and that reduce urban sprawl, to create more efficient and livable cities. Oh, and the first 25,000 affordable housing units under the plan will be set aside exclusively for homeless people.

So yeah, it's not just a "Housing For All" bill, it's a "Make Housing Easier And Better For Everyone" bill.