padib said:
I'm on a mobile phone and so I will have to put labels to properly quote-reply.
LOGIC: I gave you a few examples that used logic to explain the verses you were using to paint Jesus in a negative light. With logic I tried to walk you through how your interpretation of scripture was not reasonable. If you read over my explanations properly, you will see that they are very logical and are based on reasoning multiple passages to get the right idea and avoid misinterpretation. With this alone I show that it is possible to use reason in the realm of faith. I only need one example to proove that it is possible to apply reason and faith together.
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The Bible is what paints Jesus in a negative light, it's a very negative book full of death, torture, condemnation, fear-mongering, threats.
Either way, you will probably not convince me otherwise at this point as I just don't find your counter-argument to be compelling enough.
padib said:
FAIRNESS: This one is very difficult to answer, but boils down to the understanding of sin and repentance, and I do feel your pain in trying to make sense of it, especially as a professional in the field of saving lives. However, I will try to explain it.
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The thing about Sin is that it's a religious invention, it's not something I actually believe to exist... To actually justify the existence of Sin, you first need to establish (With evidence) that God actually exists and the Bible is a book that is actually factual.
We know from Science that the Bible has gotten allot wrong anyway, especially the Genesis account, but all claims need to be judged individually on their own merits.
I do however believe in right or wrong... And that right and wrong can actually change depending on perspective, it's not always black and white.
padib said:
According to Christianity, God does not see sin as we do. For him, sin is not about a moment in time where a crime was made, and a judgement at time X, because God is infinite and unbound by time. Instead, sin is seen on a spectrum of time that spans the life of a person, during a period that God considers a period where judgement is applied (somewhere between birth and judgement day), and even then that time itself is non-chronological and perhaps even pre-determined or pre-destined, it is a very advanced spiritual concept. For that reason, God does not judge an adult against his sin more than a child againt his, or a rapist more than a disobedient child, because God doesn't judge the crime, but the heart, and the amount of sin in a person's heart, only God can properly see and judge. You would understand then that God does not condemn a homosexual more than he would a thief, because according to the christian belief both are considered sins and both great or small to a degree true to the individual, which only God can discern. I don't expect you to accept this answer and I know that it is very metaphysical, but that is the biblical doctrine "For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". When one person repents, it is only God who knows the amplitude of that repentance, and so we are unable to say who is more deserving of mercy. All we can say is that Christ died for all, and wants all to be saved.
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But for any of that to be regarded as factual... We stem back to the idea that we need evidence to support such a hypothesis, otherwise... Why does the Christian God get more credibility than the flying spaghetti monster?
padib said:
INTERPRETATION: The bible is a book full of paradoxes, the Christ was crucified by the main religious scolars and religion itself is frought with confusion, because it is the Devil's playground. Therefore indocrination cannot hold a candle when it comes to finding proper answers to tough theological questions. The best tool is one few are willing to employ: raw honesty with one's self, and the courage to really challenge your pre-conceived beliefs, which is true as much for believers as for non-believers.
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I take an evidence based approach... I am more than happy to admit I am wrong if sufficient evidence has been gathered that challenges my pre-conceived beliefs... Theism is not one of those constructs that will ever challenge my pre-conceived beliefs because of that fact alone.
padib said:
You need to stop looking at the confision of believers amongst themselves as an excuse not to find the right answers, and realise that it is up to you and you along to make sense of your world and hence also the religious texts that belong to it. As an atheist you must be rigorous and truly examine everything, not lay upon others your responsibility to make sense of the things around you. Otherwise what of questions like Global warming, where everyone is divided, or things like Eugenics and racism. The human race has been divided about everything, it is not a reason for you to just give up and stop thinking!
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Well that's just it.
If I listen to one side... They will tell me I should listen to them, because they are right.
If I listen to the other side... They will tell me I should listen to them, because they are right.
Where as an Atheist... I am just sitting here asking for evidence for any and all of it... I am not in a position to pick whichever theistic side is right or wrong... Because they could all be wrong.
With that in mind... I was actually a Christian for a large chunk of my life growing up (Seventh-day Adventist) which does have strong pro-Old Testament positions in the Bible, of course once I became a teenager and started studying various sciences and physics (Stuff that plays into my current jobs, Aka. Fire.) I became an Atheist.
As for Global Warming... We have centuries of data to fall back on that justifies it's happenings.
Eugenics and Racism are pretty small and insignificant in the modern age.
But just because I can discard the Theistic view point, Jesus, Sin, God, Hell... All of it... Doesn't mean I have stopped and given up thinking, it means nothing has actually met the burden of proof and I can start looking towards other answers which actually has evidence to support it... Like the Big Bang and Evolution. (Supported by the Cosmic Microwave Background and the Fossil/DNA records.)
padib said:
On FAIRNESS, because I think it's the most important sub-topic and because it speaks to me personally too, I want to add some more personal thoughts.
In the bible, one of the most important characters of the new testament was the apostle Paul. Before becoming an apostle, Paul was a staunch religious scolar who zealously persecuted and murdered Christians. It happened that his life flip-turned upside down, to the point where he may have become the most prominent evangelist of all times, urging people to love one another, both towards Christians and non-Christians, to bear adversity in longsuffering and in compassion for others (in line woth Jesus' "father forgive them for they know not what they do"). It is not a single case of a person radically changing throughout the span if their existence, whether towards good or towards evil. Even in fiction some of the most poignant stories are those of characters who change heart and intention with the flick of a switch, like Cecil or Kain from FFIV, or Darth Vader at the end of SWVI. We all understand this notion that people sometimes are manipulated by their own broken nature (or by the agency of the devil, whatever you believe), and of the magnitude of mercy in helping people truly change from the inside out. I think that, as a rescuer, you can find solace in the fact that you never know who will have a change of heart, be it a cruel adult 180-ing into an advocate for human rights or an innocent child turning into an evil dictator as an adult. These things are not in our power to know in advance, and so it is your responsibility to save all without prejudice, and leave civil judgement to other authorities which do their best to judge crimes, as imperfectly as they are able to.
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Essentially, this is the deviation from the other Middle-Easter Abrahamic Religions... As they don't have the New Testament... They are based on the Old.
But like I said... It's all well and good to preach words from the Bible, which is a book written by man, it's another to actually back it up with evidence.
End of the day though, you just need to take a read through and see the horrors that the Bible contains, it supports death to Homosexuals, supports slavery, sacrifices, supports stoning of children, against divorce and so on. - Other parts of the book might come into conflict with that, but it doesn't change the fact those statements have been made.