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Forums - General Discussion - Why did Jesus Christ sacrifice his self for you?

padib said:

I don't agree to say that one side is faith and the other is logic. For instance I hold a pro-christian point of view in my answer to permalite, but it is all based on logic and congruence of the accounts we have of the Jesus story. Faith only strengthens my senses.

Yeah, I'm not saying one side is faith and the other is logic all the time (hence why I stated I enjoy the religion vs science debate). I was just saying that it usually devolves to that (which it has in this thread).

That doesn't mean everyone that believes in religion doesn't use logic. Just that the argument tends to go that way, because many that argue for faith do so in defiance of using sound arguments and proofs.



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Pemalite said:
EricHiggin said:

Pemalite said:

Yeah, nah. Anything that can be asserted with zero evidence, can be discarded with zero evidence.

So much like the answer above?

Exactly!

EricHiggin said:

Well if God exists in the form many believe, all powerful and ever living, then they also have a pretty horrific record of abuse, so why should they be worshiped as you said?

If the Bible is supposedly a "historical" account, then the Religion has a brutal and bloody history... And I cannot possibly support it... And I honestly don't think anyone should.

EricHiggin said:

If some of the many books are known to be fiction and you take all words in the story to mean what is laid out as is, then your worldview would be out to left field.

Well. It's like having a conversation with someone, you take them at face value until you have the evidence that says otherwise.
You have to give them the benefit of a doubt.

Same goes with the Middle-Eastern, Abrahamic Religions like Christianity, Islam and Judaism, you need to take their statements at face value and not twist things around to be something different.

EricHiggin said:

All day everyday in life we have to try and ascertain what was truly meant based on what was said or written, since human beings aren't walking fact machines or dictionaries, so you can't just take everything as how it seems or you will eventually pay for it in many ways. You even said yourself that you weren't being serious when you said "if Jesus was a God, then he couldn't die anyway, making his sacrifice a useless affair". Then you implied that the point was that I shouldn't have taken it seriously, when there really was no clear indication you were joking. Should I still assume you were serious?

Sarcasm is a bit different.
But you are correct, that in any serious context you need to take it at face value until you have the evidence that says otherwise. (Like myself stating I am not being serious.)

So to sum everything up, basically unless Jesus/God returns in human form, and can be studied and proven to be even half of what the Bible says they are, with superhero like powers, then nothing that can be said about religion would change your mind? Everyone believes what they want to in this case, and as long as nobody forces their belief on you, pray all you want?

Peh said:
EricHiggin said:

Well if God exists in the form many believe, all powerful and ever living, then they also have a pretty horrific record of abuse, so why should they be worshiped as you said?

The reason why people still believe in one has many reasons. Most of them have an beneficial background which can be provided in the form of paradise. Something like that can only be given by a god. People who hold such reason are seen as false believers by me. But that last remark is besides the point. 

Dictators use fear as a motivator to control their people. In god's case it would be the fear of eternal torture in hell.

So, will a god be worshipped who gives neither, a reward nor a punishment?

Humans are selfish people who mostly act on something that can be beneficial to them. That's how we evolved and that's how we live.

If only an all powerful ever living God has the right to be worshiped, who allows or potentially causes many deaths, yet a dictator with those types of powers, in a restricted typical human form, does basically the same yet shouldn't be worshiped, that really doesn't make any sense. This point is based on what was said in the prior post, which contradicts it, which is why I posed the question.



padib said:

Because this is a thread about Christianity, and Christianity is not a litteral religion, it has to be read with logic and insight.

Except you cannot read it with logic, to read it with logic would mean to actually form your belief system with verifiable empirical evidence... And non exists. - Thus your stance is entirely illogical.

padib said:

While ALL sin, without descrimination, is deserving of death, God forgives. If it was not deserving of death or punishment, then forgiveness would not be required. So it is not one (judgement) or the other (blind kindness), but both judhement and kindness.

This is what I find really really frustrating, you can get a criminal that has destroyed an innocent childs life, yet they can pray and be "saved". - But if that same child wasn't a believer, they would get sent to hell?

Conversely... Just yesterday I rescued a couple of people who were in a really bad way... But because I hold a firm Atheistic view point, I will suffer eternal damnation, whilst that criminal who destroyed a childs life gets a free pass?

There is absolutely no way I can support such a scheme.

padib said:

To understand Christianity requires a much greater amount of intelligence than people like to put in to understand it, a lot more actually trying to understand what it says. Without such good will, it is imoossible to understand it, hence why the bible old and new Testament says to search earnestly, only then can you find answers therein. It is also terribly sad that most who disbelieve do so in the name of reason, but I wholeheartedly see it the other way around.

Far from it. To understand Christianity doesn't require a great degree of intellectual fortitude, you just need the study time and the proper indoctrination.

Again, not all Christians agree on the Bible... And Christians have been arguing over the Bible for thousands of years... The religious are never going to sort out their disagreements, so why should us Atheists care about any of it?

At the end of the day though, I have seen allot.. And if there is a God, that God in my eyes is just a monster not worthy of worship... And the Bible just reinforces that position endlessly with the horrific immoral statements in it.



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padib said:

I'm on a mobile phone and so I will have to put labels to properly quote-reply.

LOGIC: I gave you a few examples that used logic to explain the verses you were using to paint Jesus in a negative light. With logic I tried to walk you through how your interpretation of scripture was not reasonable. If you read over my explanations properly, you will see that they are very logical and are based on reasoning multiple passages to get the right idea and avoid misinterpretation. With this alone I show that it is possible to use reason in the realm of faith. I only need one example to proove that it is possible to apply reason and faith together.

The Bible is what paints Jesus in a negative light, it's a very negative book full of death, torture, condemnation, fear-mongering, threats.

Either way, you will probably not convince me otherwise at this point as I just don't find your counter-argument to be compelling enough.

padib said:

FAIRNESS: This one is very difficult to answer, but boils down to the understanding of sin and repentance, and I do feel your pain in trying to make sense of it, especially as a professional in the field of saving lives. However, I will try to explain it.

The thing about Sin is that it's a religious invention, it's not something I actually believe to exist... To actually justify the existence of Sin, you first need to establish (With evidence) that God actually exists and the Bible is a book that is actually factual.

We know from Science that the Bible has gotten allot wrong anyway, especially the Genesis account, but all claims need to be judged individually on their own merits.

I do however believe in right or wrong... And that right and wrong can actually change depending on perspective, it's not always black and white.

padib said:

According to Christianity, God does not see sin as we do. For him, sin is not about a moment in time where a crime was made, and a judgement at time X, because God is infinite and unbound by time. Instead, sin is seen on a spectrum of time that spans the life of a person, during a period that God considers a period where judgement is applied (somewhere between birth and judgement day), and even then that time itself is non-chronological and perhaps even pre-determined or pre-destined, it is a very advanced spiritual concept. For that reason, God does not judge an adult against his sin more than a child againt his, or a rapist more than a disobedient child, because God doesn't judge the crime, but the heart, and the amount of sin in a person's heart, only God can properly see and judge. You would understand then that God does not condemn a homosexual more than he would a thief, because according to the christian belief both are considered sins and both great or small to a degree true to the individual, which only God can discern. I don't expect you to accept this answer and I know that it is very metaphysical, but that is the biblical doctrine "For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". When one person repents, it is only God who knows the amplitude of that repentance, and so we are unable to say who is more deserving of mercy. All we can say is that Christ died for all, and wants all to be saved.

But for any of that to be regarded as factual... We stem back to the idea that we need evidence to support such a hypothesis, otherwise... Why does the Christian God get more credibility than the flying spaghetti monster?

 

padib said:

INTERPRETATION: The bible is a book full of paradoxes, the Christ was crucified by the main religious scolars and religion itself is frought with confusion, because it is the Devil's playground. Therefore indocrination cannot hold a candle when it comes to finding proper answers to tough theological questions. The best tool is one few are willing to employ: raw honesty with one's self, and the courage to really challenge your pre-conceived beliefs, which is true as much for believers as for non-believers.

I take an evidence based approach... I am more than happy to admit I am wrong if sufficient evidence has been gathered that challenges my pre-conceived beliefs... Theism is not one of those constructs that will ever challenge my pre-conceived beliefs because of that fact alone.


padib said:

You need to stop looking at the confision of believers amongst themselves as an excuse not to find the right answers, and realise that it is up to you and you along to make sense of your world and hence also the religious texts that belong to it. As an atheist you must be rigorous and truly examine everything, not lay upon others your responsibility to make sense of the things around you. Otherwise what of questions like Global warming, where everyone is divided, or things like Eugenics and racism. The human race has been divided about everything, it is not a reason for you to just give up and stop thinking!

Well that's just it.
If I listen to one side... They will tell me I should listen to them, because they are right.
If I listen to the other side... They will tell me I should listen to them, because they are right.

Where as an Atheist... I am just sitting here asking for evidence for any and all of it... I am not in a position to pick whichever theistic side is right or wrong... Because they could all be wrong.
With that in mind... I was actually a Christian for a large chunk of my life growing up (Seventh-day Adventist) which does have strong pro-Old Testament positions in the Bible, of course once I became a teenager and started studying various sciences and physics (Stuff that plays into my current jobs, Aka. Fire.) I became an Atheist.

As for Global Warming... We have centuries of data to fall back on that justifies it's happenings.
Eugenics and Racism are pretty small and insignificant in the modern age.

But just because I can discard the Theistic view point, Jesus, Sin, God, Hell... All of it... Doesn't mean I have stopped and given up thinking, it means nothing has actually met the burden of proof and I can start looking towards other answers which actually has evidence to support it... Like the Big Bang and Evolution. (Supported by the Cosmic Microwave Background and the Fossil/DNA records.)

padib said:

On FAIRNESS, because I think it's the most important sub-topic and because it speaks to me personally too, I want to add some more personal thoughts.

In the bible, one of the most important characters of the new testament was the apostle Paul. Before becoming an apostle, Paul was a staunch religious scolar who zealously persecuted and murdered Christians. It happened that his life flip-turned upside down, to the point where he may have become the most prominent evangelist of all times, urging people to love one another, both towards Christians and non-Christians, to bear adversity in longsuffering and in compassion for others (in line woth Jesus' "father forgive them for they know not what they do"). It is not a single case of a person radically changing throughout the span if their existence, whether towards good or towards evil. Even in fiction some of the most poignant stories are those of characters who change heart and intention with the flick of a switch, like Cecil or Kain from FFIV, or Darth Vader at the end of SWVI. We all understand this notion that people sometimes are manipulated by their own broken nature (or by the agency of the devil, whatever you believe), and of the magnitude of mercy in helping people truly change from the inside out. I think that, as a rescuer, you can find solace in the fact that you never know who will have a change of heart, be it a cruel adult 180-ing into an advocate for human rights or an innocent child turning into an evil dictator as an adult. These things are not in our power to know in advance, and so it is your responsibility to save all without prejudice, and leave civil judgement to other authorities which do their best to judge crimes, as imperfectly as they are able to.

Essentially, this is the deviation from the other Middle-Easter Abrahamic Religions... As they don't have the New Testament... They are based on the Old.

But like I said... It's all well and good to preach words from the Bible, which is a book written by man, it's another to actually back it up with evidence.

End of the day though, you just need to take a read through and see the horrors that the Bible contains, it supports death to Homosexuals, supports slavery, sacrifices, supports stoning of children, against divorce and so on. - Other parts of the book might come into conflict with that, but it doesn't change the fact those statements have been made.



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Peh said:

Humans are selfish people who mostly act on something that can be beneficial to them. That's how we evolved and that's how we live.

You mean that's how god created us, right?



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danasider said:
padib said:

I don't agree to say that one side is faith and the other is logic. For instance I hold a pro-christian point of view in my answer to permalite, but it is all based on logic and congruence of the accounts we have of the Jesus story. Faith only strengthens my senses.

Yeah, I'm not saying one side is faith and the other is logic all the time (hence why I stated I enjoy the religion vs science debate). I was just saying that it usually devolves to that (which it has in this thread).

That doesn't mean everyone that believes in religion doesn't use logic. Just that the argument tends to go that way, because many that argue for faith do so in defiance of using sound arguments and proofs.

This. I find arguing this to be redundant.

 

Based on my reading and studying of the Bible using historic criticism, theologians, grammatical criticisms, linguistic criticism, etc I understand that faith only comes from a personal experience with God, (who is totally metaphysical [yet involved] and beyond time),  that only He can initiate and accomplish, but totally transforms your world view. Therefore, how do you as a totally physical human being prove that to someone who doesn't know you? Easy answer, you cannot. As it were according to Christian teachings only God can prove God and that is only done through the Gospel. 

So, I find this argumentation meaningless.

What I do find fascinating is a discussion (not debate) evidence of the existence or lack thereof for things in history, science, philosophy, etc. You know things that we can lay eyes and hands on. Obviously this includes the historicity of the Bible.

I also enjoy a good debate on morality and philosophy, you know things that if God were real would be the easiest way to identify His influence.

Then the debate turns into which God. Anyway, have fun.

Just my 2 cents. I have previously stated my frustration with this thread,  peace out!

Last edited by Victorlink87 - on 28 January 2019

padib said:

I guess that is all for me but it was a pleasure discussing this with you and I enjoyed reading your thoughts.

Indeed! Always love a good discussion.


padib said:

I will leave you with one word of wisdom: some things in life can't be explained, they can only truly be experienced. Don't put so much faith in pure science, it does not hold the key.

Well, that is where I disagree... Science is the explanation of the natural world, if it exists, then science has the potential to explain it, it doesn't hold the answers to everything today... And that is fine, but chances are it will find the answers to many of our questions tomorrow.

Science has also provided us with all our modern comforts, Internet, electricity, running water, vehicles, modern farming practices, medicines.... You name it.

Science also allows us to travel Space, it's safe to say that Science has done more for the advancement of our knowledge of the Universe and everything in it than Religion... And that is why I am an ardent supporter of Science over Religion, it's hard to actually beat evidence.



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Science literally means knowledge. It's up to the human how he/she uses it.
You cannot blame knowlegde for your mistakes.



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padib said:

I work in the most modern field of applicable sciences (software) and I can tell you that this field among all of them is truly the worst when it comes to distancing people from healthy human connections and bonding. For me obedience to God was my true escape to the ever-growing ground technology has been gaining in my life.

God if it Hypothetically existed, wouldn't be human... So you still aren't technically making a human connection anyway... And as someone who used to be a baptized Christian so I can speak from experience... You don't really get to sit down to a cup of coffee and have a conversation with your God, you still have a ton of solitude.

However lack of human connection and bonding isn't the fault of science, you need to get more proactive and involved in your community, I am forever surrounded by people, interacting... Because I chose to do so, no Religion or Hypothetical Gods required.

At the end of the day though, if your belief system makes you happier, then so be it.

padib said:

And for you I think it can offer some escape from the negative feeling you had about the people you save.

There are no negative feelings. Religion is not something I can adhere to, belief in something without evidence is simply illogical.

padib said:

Either way I wish us all the best in our beliefs and our every day lives.

No worries, you too.



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