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Why did Jesus Christ sacrifice his self for you?

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padib said:
Pemalite said:

That's not it at all. Not entirely sure how you even came to that conclusion.
Religion isn't a pre-requisite to a good life and being a decent human being, I am literal evidence for that.
 

What?

There are consequences. Like being dead.

The thing with Religion is that you can be an absolutely abhorrent disgusting rapist... But if you pray hard enough, you will get into Heaven. - Where is the consequence there?

Nah. Plenty of secular nations get on fine without religion. It's not a required foundation for a functioning society, it never was, never will.

 

If you think Jesus was a nice guy... Think again.


* Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send [or bring] peace, but a sword.  - Matthew 10:34 - Jesus wanted war.

* Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the  the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. -  Matthew 10:21 - Families will be torn a part by Jesus.

* Jesus condemned entire cities to death and eternal torment because they don't care for his preaching. - Matthew 11:20

* Jesus criticized the Jewish people for not murdering their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. - Mark 7:9

And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

The Bible is really a terrible, disgusting book, just like the Torah and Quran... And Jesus is a disgusting individual, God, Son of God, Human or Fairy-tale or not.

My point of view:

One and only one meaning makes sense with the other things that Jesus taught here: Jesus was warning his disciples that their love for him would not be peacefully accepted by people who don't believe. At the time, people were hoping that the messiah would bring political peace but that was a false hope and Jesus was warning people not to cling to that false hope. You will notice that there is a lot of venom aimed at Christianity, with the martyrdom of early Christians in the roman times, to the  silent execution of Christians in the middle east, Jesus was correct.

See my point above. Jesus does not want pain, but to stand for what is true will lead to martyrdom of Christians. Non-believing Brothers deliver their  Christian brothers to death, this happens in worlds that are hostile to Christians be it today around the globe or during history. Non believing children rebel against their believing parents, and cause them even to be put to death in some countires. Don't underestimate the evil in human nature. The instigator of all this is Satan, who wants the blood of innocents, this is not Jesus' work. Jesus calls Christians to submit to one another and non-believing brothers, parents, etc. You really got this one upside down.

Jesus claims to be the path to salvation. This is a serious warning not a judgement, so they can take it seriously for the salvation of their own souls.

In this passage, Jesus is not asking for Jews to put their children to death. If that were true he would not have put a stop to the execution of the adulteress (John 7:5-8:1) This passage rather criticises the concept of avoiding the duty to honor one's parents in order to respect a tradition that intervened with the 4th commandment, in such way causing the children to disobey out of respect for a false rite.

This truly is the tip of the iceberg that demonstrates the enormous, underwater titan of a need for research, soul-seeking and honesty when it comes to how you read the bible. It is urgent that you throw away the hate-tinted glasses you were raised with and put on a new set of glasses to help you understand what the bible actually is trying to communicate to you and to all the other souls out there. This transformation is called being born again, a term many despise because it is Satan's worst nightmare, the conversion of a soul to the kingdom of heaven. Through That healing process, you will be able to finally read what the bible says without twisting it completely out of form. It will no longer be disgusting, but a font of wisdom and peace, and Jesus the role-model you like I and many others desperately need.

I figured this type of thing wasn't worth writing out because of the whole your interpretation vs mine problem. I agree with you for the most part.

Immediately, the whole, I've come to bring a sword not peace, makes no sense because of his lack of violence. How many men did Jesus slay, or how many did he command and clearly send to go kill sinners? To me it's kinda like Trump in some ways. People lose their minds when he says stuff, but he's mostly just talking tough and using it strategically to accomplish the political goal. There's also the fact that when peace clearly isn't working, other steps sometimes need to be taken, but not specifically war, even though you could call it that if you wanted. Again, I see this as a similar reason why Trump came into power. One side wouldn't come to terms with the other sides legitimate issue's, and so then you get Trump. Somebody who said they will fight for the people and take the heat for it, yet he's never thrown a physical punch. Lot's of hate and worse for Trump and his followers, plenty who tend to be Bible believers just by chance. (I should clarify that Trump and Jesus clearly differ greatly in other ways, so Trump ain't no savior)

Last edited by EricHiggin - on 25 January 2019

The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

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EricHiggin said:
padib said:

My point of view:

One and only one meaning makes sense with the other things that Jesus taught here: Jesus was warning his disciples that their love for him would not be peacefully accepted by people who don't believe. At the time, people were hoping that the messiah would bring political peace but that was a false hope and Jesus was warning people not to cling to that false hope. You will notice that there is a lot of venom aimed at Christianity, with the martyrdom of early Christians in the roman times, to the  silent execution of Christians in the middle east, Jesus was correct.

See my point above. Jesus does not want pain, but to stand for what is true will lead to martyrdom of Christians. Non-believing Brothers deliver their  Christian brothers to death, this happens in worlds that are hostile to Christians be it today around the globe or during history. Non believing children rebel against their believing parents, and cause them even to be put to death in some countires. Don't underestimate the evil in human nature. The instigator of all this is Satan, who wants the blood of innocents, this is not Jesus' work. Jesus calls Christians to submit to one another and non-believing brothers, parents, etc. You really got this one upside down.

Jesus claims to be the path to salvation. This is a serious warning not a judgement, so they can take it seriously for the salvation of their own souls.

In this passage, Jesus is not asking for Jews to put their children to death. If that were true he would not have put a stop to the execution of the adulteress (John 7:5-8:1) This passage rather criticises the concept of avoiding the duty to honor one's parents in order to respect a tradition that intervened with the 4th commandment, in such way causing the children to disobey out of respect for a false rite.

This truly is the tip of the iceberg that demonstrates the enormous, underwater titan of a need for research, soul-seeking and honesty when it comes to how you read the bible. It is urgent that you throw away the hate-tinted glasses you were raised with and put on a new set of glasses to help you understand what the bible actually is trying to communicate to you and to all the other souls out there. This transformation is called being born again, a term many despise because it is Satan's worst nightmare, the conversion of a soul to the kingdom of heaven. Through That healing process, you will be able to finally read what the bible says without twisting it completely out of form. It will no longer be disgusting, but a font of wisdom and peace, and Jesus the role-model you like I and many others desperately need.

I figured this type of thing wasn't worth writing out because of the whole your interpretation vs mine problem. I agree with you for the most part.

Immediately, the whole, I've come to bring a sword not peace, makes no sense because of his lack of violence. How many men did Jesus slay, or how many did he command and clearly send to go kill sinners? To me it's kinda like Trump in some ways. People lose their minds when he says stuff, but he's mostly just talking tough and using it strategically to accomplish the political goal. There's also the fact that when peace clearly isn't working, other steps sometimes need to be taken, but not specifically war, even though you could call it that if you wanted. Again, I see this as a similar reason why Trump came into power. One side wouldn't come to terms with the other sides legitimate issue's, and so then you get Trump. Somebody who said they will fight for the people and take the heat for it, yet he's never thrown a physical punch. Lot's of hate and worse for Trump and his followers, plenty who tend to be Bible believers just by chance. (I should clarify that Trump and Jesus clearly differ greatly in other ways, so Trump ain't no savior)

Jesus spoke in figurative language a lot. Immediate context of the sword quote determines that he is speaking of the division following Jesus would cause for all. A sword divides and causes disruption not peace. It was immediately true for those that heard, but they knew Jesus wasn't advocating for violence against others.

 

Sorry to butt in! Leaving now!



EricHiggin said:

Pemalite said: 

The Original claim is about whether a God exists or not, so I am going to have a bit of fun after that claim has been thrown.

Ok, but using another assertion to prove the initial assertion wrong is like walking in circles when your destination is in one specific direction.

But that is the actual point. Theists use circular logic for their justification of the theistic view point. - So using an argument from absurdism by using their own tactics against them is just taking the piss.
I.E. I wasn't being serious in the slightest.

EricHiggin said:

Who says God has to be infinite in the way we understand it? Maybe they just have a 1 trillion year lifespan, and maybe that's how long the universe can last before it collapses, so technically that would mean they live the entire duration of the lifespan of existence, so that would fall under infinite.

Yeah, nah. Anything that can be asserted with zero evidence, can be discarded with zero evidence.

EricHiggin said:

If being all powerful is the only thing that deserves uncompromised worship, then why doesn't the world worship dictators more so than other types of leaders?

Good question... I mean. There is actually evidence for dictators existing. - However... Dictatorships tend to have a horrific record of abuse, so maybe that could be why?

padib said:

My point of view:

<SNIP>

nd that is just the tip of the iceberg.
The Bible is really a terrible, disgusting book, just like the Torah and Quran... And Jesus is a disgusting individual, God, Son of God, Human or Fairy-tale or not.

This truly is the tip of the iceberg that demonstrates the enormous, underwater titan of a need for research, soul-seeking and honesty when it comes to how you read the bible. It is urgent that you throw away the hate-tinted glasses you were raised with and put on a new set of glasses to help you understand what the bible actually is trying to communicate to you and to all the other souls out there. This transformation is called being born again, a term many despise because it is Satan's worst nightmare, the conversion of a soul to the kingdom of heaven. Through That healing process, you will be able to finally read what the bible says without twisting it completely out of form. It will no longer be disgusting, but a font of wisdom and peace, and Jesus the role-model you like I and many others desperately need.

Basically you have taken the a-typical apologetic point of view... However, we need to remember that there are plenty of Theists that believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible.

If I am to read a book, any book, I will take it as a literal interpretation from what is laid out in black and white, and not twist things around to suit any kind of view.

The Bible for instance does state that Homosexuality (Amongst many other sins) is deserving of death, no way around it, yet there are those who discard that view. - So who is right? Who is wrong? Doesn't matter. You can only read what is written in plain black and white.

If you have to twist things around, then you might as well write a new book that discards such transgressions to start with.

Fact of the matter is, at the end of the day... If the religious cannot agree about everything in the Bible, then why should an Atheist like myself care about it?

Victorlink87 said:

Jesus spoke in figurative language a lot. Immediate context of the sword quote determines that he is speaking of the division following Jesus would cause for all. A sword divides and causes disruption not peace. It was immediately true for those that heard, but they knew Jesus wasn't advocating for violence against others.

 

Sorry to butt in! Leaving now!

http://www.evilbible.com/ is a bit of an eye opener to be honest. They don't play games with the wording.



Pemalite said:
EricHiggin said:

Pemalite said: 

The Original claim is about whether a God exists or not, so I am going to have a bit of fun after that claim has been thrown.

Ok, but using another assertion to prove the initial assertion wrong is like walking in circles when your destination is in one specific direction.

But that is the actual point. Theists use circular logic for their justification of the theistic view point. - So using an argument from absurdism by using their own tactics against them is just taking the piss.
I.E. I wasn't being serious in the slightest.

Well it was pretty tough to pick up on that if that was indeed the case. I can't help but take it that since there was no serious reply, the best we could say is that neither is anybodies best guess?

Pemalite said:

EricHiggin said: 

Who says God has to be infinite in the way we understand it? Maybe they just have a 1 trillion year lifespan, and maybe that's how long the universe can last before it collapses, so technically that would mean they live the entire duration of the lifespan of existence, so that would fall under infinite.

Yeah, nah. Anything that can be asserted with zero evidence, can be discarded with zero evidence.

So much like the answer above?

Pemalite said:

EricHiggin said: 

If being all powerful is the only thing that deserves uncompromised worship, then why doesn't the world worship dictators more so than other types of leaders?

Good question... I mean. There is actually evidence for dictators existing. - However... Dictatorships tend to have a horrific record of abuse, so maybe that could be why?

Well if God exists in the form many believe, all powerful and ever living, then they also have a pretty horrific record of abuse, so why should they be worshiped as you said?

Pemalite said:

padib said: 

My point of view:

This truly is the tip of the iceberg that demonstrates the enormous, underwater titan of a need for research, soul-seeking and honesty when it comes to how you read the bible. It is urgent that you throw away the hate-tinted glasses you were raised with and put on a new set of glasses to help you understand what the bible actually is trying to communicate to you and to all the other souls out there. This transformation is called being born again, a term many despise because it is Satan's worst nightmare, the conversion of a soul to the kingdom of heaven. Through That healing process, you will be able to finally read what the bible says without twisting it completely out of form. It will no longer be disgusting, but a font of wisdom and peace, and Jesus the role-model you like I and many others desperately need.

Basically you have taken the a-typical apologetic point of view... However, we need to remember that there are plenty of Theists that believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible.

If I am to read a book, any book, I will take it as a literal interpretation from what is laid out in black and white, and not twist things around to suit any kind of view.

The Bible for instance does state that Homosexuality (Amongst many other sins) is deserving of death, no way around it, yet there are those who discard that view. - So who is right? Who is wrong? Doesn't matter. You can only read what is written in plain black and white.

If you have to twist things around, then you might as well write a new book that discards such transgressions to start with.

Fact of the matter is, at the end of the day... If the religious cannot agree about everything in the Bible, then why should an Atheist like myself care about it?

If some of the many books are known to be fiction and you take all words in the story to mean what is laid out as is, then your worldview would be out to left field.

All day everyday in life we have to try and ascertain what was truly meant based on what was said or written, since human beings aren't walking fact machines or dictionaries, so you can't just take everything as how it seems or you will eventually pay for it in many ways. You even said yourself that you weren't being serious when you said "if Jesus was a God, then he couldn't die anyway, making his sacrifice a useless affair". Then you implied that the point was that I shouldn't have taken it seriously, when there really was no clear indication you were joking. Should I still assume you were serious?



The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

I always enjoy a good science vs religion debate. And even though the topic wasn't explicitly asking for that debate, it's going to happen since the question implies the existence of the man-god Jesus.
But once the debate devolves to circular reasoning and repetitive stances, it loses its luster.
Frankly, this subject inevitably devolves, because of one main issue. One side is using argumentation that is built on a set of rules (logic and philosophy) while another side is basing what they call arguments on faith, so all the rules of proper argumentation can be thrown out the window.
It's like saying you are playing someone in chess, but you use the rules of checkers. In reality, you're not playing the same game at all, so you never had a chance of winning. However, since you're so out in your own world that you'd resort to playing by your rules instead of those belonging to the game, there's no convincing you that you lost.



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Mental illness?



4 ≈ One

EricHiggin said:

Pemalite said:

Yeah, nah. Anything that can be asserted with zero evidence, can be discarded with zero evidence.

So much like the answer above?

Exactly!

EricHiggin said:

Well if God exists in the form many believe, all powerful and ever living, then they also have a pretty horrific record of abuse, so why should they be worshiped as you said?

If the Bible is supposedly a "historical" account, then the Religion has a brutal and bloody history... And I cannot possibly support it... And I honestly don't think anyone should.

EricHiggin said:

If some of the many books are known to be fiction and you take all words in the story to mean what is laid out as is, then your worldview would be out to left field.

Well. It's like having a conversation with someone, you take them at face value until you have the evidence that says otherwise.
You have to give them the benefit of a doubt.

Same goes with the Middle-Eastern, Abrahamic Religions like Christianity, Islam and Judaism, you need to take their statements at face value and not twist things around to be something different.

EricHiggin said:

All day everyday in life we have to try and ascertain what was truly meant based on what was said or written, since human beings aren't walking fact machines or dictionaries, so you can't just take everything as how it seems or you will eventually pay for it in many ways. You even said yourself that you weren't being serious when you said "if Jesus was a God, then he couldn't die anyway, making his sacrifice a useless affair". Then you implied that the point was that I shouldn't have taken it seriously, when there really was no clear indication you were joking. Should I still assume you were serious?

Sarcasm is a bit different.
But you are correct, that in any serious context you need to take it at face value until you have the evidence that says otherwise. (Like myself stating I am not being serious.)



I wonder if most christians on this site are American cause in many European countries christianity has been in decline for a long time.
But yeah remember good words do not solve much, it is good deeds that do.



AbbathTheGrim said:
aikohualda said:

 

Mom intentionally crashes vehicle to prove to kids that 'God is real'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bde0LkCdCJo

Officers asked Warren's children if she did it on purpose.

"Yeah, because she turned," one of the children said. "Her eyes were closed and she was saying, blah, blah blah, 'I love God.'"

 

https://www.nbc4i.com/news/u-s-world/video-mom-intentionally-crashes-vehicle-to-prove-to-kids-that-god-is-real/1096463209

 

LOL omg im dying!!!! LOL



 

EricHiggin said:

Well if God exists in the form many believe, all powerful and ever living, then they also have a pretty horrific record of abuse, so why should they be worshiped as you said?

The reason why people still believe in one has many reasons. Most of them have an beneficial background which can be provided in the form of paradise. Something like that can only be given by a god. People who hold such reason are seen as false believers by me. But that last remark is besides the point. 

Dictators use fear as a motivator to control their people. In god's case it would be the fear of eternal torture in hell.

 

So, will a god be worshipped who gives neither, a reward nor a punishment?

Humans are selfish people who mostly act on something that can be beneficial to them. That's how we evolved and that's how we live.



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