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PS5: Leaked Design And Technology [RUMOUR]

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It is literally impossible to argue. None of the points i put forward are even considered slightly. Just met with "false".



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Next console for me will be the new switch model and will only adapt to ps5 a few years into that gen



Based on the rumors that PS5 is using either a monolithic APU or dedicated chiplets, what if PS and AMD combined the APU and chiplet idea?

Instead of having one big APU or many smaller dedicated chiplets linked with infinity fabric, what if they had two smaller APU 'chiplets' linked?

Since we know it has Ryzen and Navi, each APU 'chiplet' could have 4 Ryzen CPU cores, and maybe 36 Navi GPU CU's let's say (the same amount as the PS4 Pro GPU). Take both APU 'chiplets' and link them together with infinity fabric, and use an I/O die if necessary. This way you would end up with 8 CPU cores and 72 GPU CU's, and could do so much more cheaply because your yields should be remarkably higher due to having much smaller chiplet APU's instead of one big monolithic APU.

Maybe this isn't technically possible or just wouldn't make sense, as a monolithic APU or dedicated chiplet design would be better overall possibly?

Last edited by EricHiggin - on 03 June 2019

The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

EricHiggin said:

Based on the rumors that PS5 is using either a monolithic APU or dedicated chiplets, what if PS and AMD combined the APU and chiplet idea?

Instead of having one big APU or many smaller dedicated chiplets linked with infinity fabric, what if they had two smaller APU 'chiplets' linked?

Since we know it has Ryzen and Navi, each APU 'chiplet' could have 4 Ryzen CPU cores, and maybe 36 Navi GPU CU's let's say (the same amount as the PS4 Pro GPU). Take both APU 'chiplets' and link them together with infinity fabric, and use an I/O die if necessary. This way you would end up with 8 CPU cores and 72 GPU CU's, and could do so much more cheaply because your yields should be remarkably higher due to having much smaller chiplet APU's instead of one big monolithic APU.

Maybe this isn't technically possible or just wouldn't make sense, as a monolithic APU or dedicated chiplet design would be better overall possibly?

Yea, large monolithic chips hopefully can be replaced by clusters of chiplets in the future as that would mean much less wasted silicon waver area and should result in better prices. The problem is the bandwith of Infinity Fabric (IF), which afaik isn't quite high enough to seemlessly link several GPU chiplets into a big GPU. Even if AMD has a much more advanced IF rdy to go it could be prohibitively costly, as they don't seem to use it in their upcoming Navi GPUs (the one Lisa showed on stage at Computex was monlithic).



Lafiel said:
EricHiggin said:

Based on the rumors that PS5 is using either a monolithic APU or dedicated chiplets, what if PS and AMD combined the APU and chiplet idea?

Instead of having one big APU or many smaller dedicated chiplets linked with infinity fabric, what if they had two smaller APU 'chiplets' linked?

Since we know it has Ryzen and Navi, each APU 'chiplet' could have 4 Ryzen CPU cores, and maybe 36 Navi GPU CU's let's say (the same amount as the PS4 Pro GPU). Take both APU 'chiplets' and link them together with infinity fabric, and use an I/O die if necessary. This way you would end up with 8 CPU cores and 72 GPU CU's, and could do so much more cheaply because your yields should be remarkably higher due to having much smaller chiplet APU's instead of one big monolithic APU.

Maybe this isn't technically possible or just wouldn't make sense, as a monolithic APU or dedicated chiplet design would be better overall possibly?

Yea, large monolithic chips hopefully can be replaced by clusters of chiplets in the future as that would mean much less wasted silicon waver area and should result in better prices. The problem is the bandwith of Infinity Fabric (IF), which afaik isn't quite high enough to seemlessly link several GPU chiplets into a big GPU. Even if AMD has a much more advanced IF rdy to go it could be prohibitively costly, as they don't seem to use it in their upcoming Navi GPUs (the one Lisa showed on stage at Computex was monlithic).

I was also thinking about AMD's GPU roadmap and how Navi was said to have next gen memory (GDDR6) and scalablility. While that could mean different things I wondered if it could potentially hint towards multiple GPU chiplets like the Ryzen CPU chiplets.

There are other rumors at the moment that Navi 10 is still partially GCN and partially RDNA, and that Navi 20 next year will apparently become fully RDNA. With AMD mentioning that PS came into the picture after Navi had been in development, maybe the reason for the hybrid GCN/RDNA was for them? Since PS can add future advancements to their planned past/present GPU architecture using AMD's semi custom branch, maybe it's possible that PS5 could use smaller multiple APU chiplets based on Navi 10 that incorporate a Navi 20 advanced IF chiplet design?

The advanced IF could cost more but likely shouldn't be more costly than fabricating an 8 core, 72 CU, monolithic APU, and it's losses due to yields. If it works for CPU and can have costs as low as they do, then surely it could work for GPU as well once the die get's large enough that yields are a problem. Could it work for smaller separate APU's though?



The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

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EricHiggin said:

Based on the rumors that PS5 is using either a monolithic APU or dedicated chiplets, what if PS and AMD combined the APU and chiplet idea?

Basically the rumors stated that anything can happen? You don't have much choice than those two options.

EricHiggin said:

Instead of having one big APU or many smaller dedicated chiplets linked with infinity fabric, what if they had two smaller APU 'chiplets' linked?

That is one possibility, but won't happen.

You will likely have the I/O, CPU chiplets, GPU chiplet... That way AMD can optimize the process for the chip designs better.

EricHiggin said:

Since we know it has Ryzen and Navi, each APU 'chiplet' could have 4 Ryzen CPU cores, and maybe 36 Navi GPU CU's let's say (the same amount as the PS4 Pro GPU). Take both APU 'chiplets' and link them together with infinity fabric, and use an I/O die if necessary. This way you would end up with 8 CPU cores and 72 GPU CU's, and could do so much more cheaply because your yields should be remarkably higher due to having much smaller chiplet APU's instead of one big monolithic APU.

Maybe this isn't technically possible or just wouldn't make sense, as a monolithic APU or dedicated chiplet design would be better overall possibly?

The infinity fabric likely doesn't have the appropriate bandwidth for GPU chiplets of 36+ NAVI CU's to work together.
100GB/s isn't enough... Especially as said GPU's will be accessing bandwidth multiples more than that to local RAM.

It is a good idea in theory though. But CPU's tend to be less bandwidth intensive than GPU's.

Lafiel said:

Yea, large monolithic chips hopefully can be replaced by clusters of chiplets in the future as that would mean much less wasted silicon waver area and should result in better prices. The problem is the bandwith of Infinity Fabric (IF), which afaik isn't quite high enough to seemlessly link several GPU chiplets into a big GPU. Even if AMD has a much more advanced IF rdy to go it could be prohibitively costly, as they don't seem to use it in their upcoming Navi GPUs (the one Lisa showed on stage at Computex was monlithic).

There are engineering ways around it though.
AMD could set up a direct high-bandwidth link from the GPU chiplets that avoids the infinity fabric direct to DRAM or another piece of logic and have them work together there... And use the Infinity fabric for local chip communication that tend to be smaller transfers.
But that approach would get complicated pretty quickly.

Either way, for the GPU... The monolithic die is here to stay for the immediate future for GPU's, AMD simply hasn't shown they have solved the limitations yet.

EricHiggin said:

There are other rumors at the moment that Navi 10 is still partially GCN and partially RDNA, and that Navi 20 next year will apparently become fully RDNA. With AMD mentioning that PS came into the picture after Navi had been in development, maybe the reason for the hybrid GCN/RDNA was for them? Since PS can add future advancements to their planned past/present GPU architecture using AMD's semi custom branch, maybe it's possible that PS5 could use smaller multiple APU chiplets based on Navi 10 that incorporate a Navi 20 advanced IF chiplet design?

AMD is trying to distance itself from GCN. RDNA is very much built on the foundations of GCN... Just like VLIW4 was built on the foundations of VLIW5... Remember AMD was championing how Vega was one of the largest deviations of GCN at one point as well.



Pemalite said:
EricHiggin said:

Based on the rumors that PS5 is using either a monolithic APU or dedicated chiplets, what if PS and AMD combined the APU and chiplet idea?

Basically the rumors stated that anything can happen? You don't have much choice than those two options.

EricHiggin said:

Instead of having one big APU or many smaller dedicated chiplets linked with infinity fabric, what if they had two smaller APU 'chiplets' linked?

That is one possibility, but won't happen.

You will likely have the I/O, CPU chiplets, GPU chiplet... That way AMD can optimize the process for the chip designs better.

EricHiggin said:

Since we know it has Ryzen and Navi, each APU 'chiplet' could have 4 Ryzen CPU cores, and maybe 36 Navi GPU CU's let's say (the same amount as the PS4 Pro GPU). Take both APU 'chiplets' and link them together with infinity fabric, and use an I/O die if necessary. This way you would end up with 8 CPU cores and 72 GPU CU's, and could do so much more cheaply because your yields should be remarkably higher due to having much smaller chiplet APU's instead of one big monolithic APU.

Maybe this isn't technically possible or just wouldn't make sense, as a monolithic APU or dedicated chiplet design would be better overall possibly?

The infinity fabric likely doesn't have the appropriate bandwidth for GPU chiplets of 36+ NAVI CU's to work together.
100GB/s isn't enough... Especially as said GPU's will be accessing bandwidth multiples more than that to local RAM.

It is a good idea in theory though. But CPU's tend to be less bandwidth intensive than GPU's.

Lafiel said:

Yea, large monolithic chips hopefully can be replaced by clusters of chiplets in the future as that would mean much less wasted silicon waver area and should result in better prices. The problem is the bandwith of Infinity Fabric (IF), which afaik isn't quite high enough to seemlessly link several GPU chiplets into a big GPU. Even if AMD has a much more advanced IF rdy to go it could be prohibitively costly, as they don't seem to use it in their upcoming Navi GPUs (the one Lisa showed on stage at Computex was monlithic).

There are engineering ways around it though.
AMD could set up a direct high-bandwidth link from the GPU chiplets that avoids the infinity fabric direct to DRAM or another piece of logic and have them work together there... And use the Infinity fabric for local chip communication that tend to be smaller transfers.
But that approach would get complicated pretty quickly.

Either way, for the GPU... The monolithic die is here to stay for the immediate future for GPU's, AMD simply hasn't shown they have solved the limitations yet.

EricHiggin said:

There are other rumors at the moment that Navi 10 is still partially GCN and partially RDNA, and that Navi 20 next year will apparently become fully RDNA. With AMD mentioning that PS came into the picture after Navi had been in development, maybe the reason for the hybrid GCN/RDNA was for them? Since PS can add future advancements to their planned past/present GPU architecture using AMD's semi custom branch, maybe it's possible that PS5 could use smaller multiple APU chiplets based on Navi 10 that incorporate a Navi 20 advanced IF chiplet design?

AMD is trying to distance itself from GCN. RDNA is very much built on the foundations of GCN... Just like VLIW4 was built on the foundations of VLIW5... Remember AMD was championing how Vega was one of the largest deviations of GCN at one point as well.

Good info, thx. So basically, possible but quite unlikely when it comes to APU chiplets, but more likely when it comes to separate CPU chiplets like AMD are gearing up towards, with a monolithic GPU. With Lisa saying PS was using their semi custom offering again I figured it meant another APU, but with chiplets being the way forward with Zen 2 I thought maybe a hybrid between them could make sense. Probably need another entire gen to pass before that kind of tech could be realized in consoles.



The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

Doubt it.



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EricHiggin said:

Good info, thx. So basically, possible but quite unlikely when it comes to APU chiplets, but more likely when it comes to separate CPU chiplets like AMD are gearing up towards, with a monolithic GPU. With Lisa saying PS was using their semi custom offering again I figured it meant another APU, but with chiplets being the way forward with Zen 2 I thought maybe a hybrid between them could make sense. Probably need another entire gen to pass before that kind of tech could be realized in consoles.

Pretty much! I mean, if the APU chiplets were significantly smaller with like 8 CU's or less, then it would be entirely possible as 100GB/s tends not to be the bottleneck but the 25-50GB/s of bandwidth to DDR4 is.

I think with a next-gen infinity fabric, allot more things will become possible on this front.



EricHiggin said:
Lafiel said:

Yea, large monolithic chips hopefully can be replaced by clusters of chiplets in the future as that would mean much less wasted silicon waver area and should result in better prices. The problem is the bandwith of Infinity Fabric (IF), which afaik isn't quite high enough to seemlessly link several GPU chiplets into a big GPU. Even if AMD has a much more advanced IF rdy to go it could be prohibitively costly, as they don't seem to use it in their upcoming Navi GPUs (the one Lisa showed on stage at Computex was monlithic).

I was also thinking about AMD's GPU roadmap and how Navi was said to have next gen memory (GDDR6) and scalablility. While that could mean different things I wondered if it could potentially hint towards multiple GPU chiplets like the Ryzen CPU chiplets.

There are other rumors at the moment that Navi 10 is still partially GCN and partially RDNA, and that Navi 20 next year will apparently become fully RDNA. With AMD mentioning that PS came into the picture after Navi had been in development, maybe the reason for the hybrid GCN/RDNA was for them? Since PS can add future advancements to their planned past/present GPU architecture using AMD's semi custom branch, maybe it's possible that PS5 could use smaller multiple APU chiplets based on Navi 10 that incorporate a Navi 20 advanced IF chiplet design?

The advanced IF could cost more but likely shouldn't be more costly than fabricating an 8 core, 72 CU, monolithic APU, and it's losses due to yields. If it works for CPU and can have costs as low as they do, then surely it could work for GPU as well once the die get's large enough that yields are a problem. Could it work for smaller separate APU's though?

Did you see Apple at WWDC?

Radeon Pro Vega II Duo, two Radeon Vega II's connected via Infinity Fabric!

People have underestimated AMD so much, but the road maps have ben telling us this stuff is comming all along. I brought up Scalability meaning they were going to make a huge push towards Portable and Mobile devices with Zen and Navi, and now look at the Laptop space, and the deal Samsung just signed for their Mobile products. 

I believe more and more that PS5 is going to be a much more scalable platform than we saw with PS4 and PS4 Pro. I would not be surprised to see Sony take advantage of Infinity fabric for a future Premium tier PS5 revisions. Ryzen and RDNA are already perfect for a Mobile PS5, Sony has to have been thinking about this in the development of PS5, especially with the state of the console market in Japan. Don't be surprised if the rumors FoxyGameUK of a Portable PlayStation come to fruition. A stand alone PlayStation VR device like Oculus Quest running on Ryzen and RDNA is another real possability. A low power Ryzen/RDNA Mobile chip would be a perfect replacement for the garbage MediaTek SOC's in their Bravia TVs as well. 

Sony and AMD might finally be in position to achieve what Ken Kutaragi was aiming for with Cell and PlayStation. Exciting times lay ahead. Sony, Microsoft, and AMD are ready to rock the boat hard, and greatly realign the tech industry over the next decade. 



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