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Forums - Politics Discussion - Do you support the U.S. teacher strikes?

konnichiwa on 09 May 2018
fatslob-:O said:
Megiddo said:

I'm curious fatslob, why are you using the average salary of US teachers and not the average salary of teachers in West Virginia, Kentucky, Oklahoma, Arizona, and Colorado where teachers are striking? We know that deep blue states will pay their teachers well, so you have to look at the rest of the country to see why they are striking as the education budget continues to get slashed in many states.

Check this link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2018/03/05/how-much-or-little-teachers-earn-state-by-state/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.530ef79af819

That link has a nice handy chart for you. Pay attention especially to how some states, particularly the states that the teachers are striking in, are paying their teachers on average less than they did almost 20 years ago.

Now I hope you learned enough in school to figure out why having a salary that is lower than what it was almost 20 years ago is a pretty bad situation.

Cause some of the red states are often poorer, older and more geographically disadvantaged thus lower salary but let's not pretend that making $40000+ on average in the worst conditions on states with already lower costs of living as being impoverished ... (if teachers in those states think that the pay in some of the blue states are more alluring than lower housing prices, produce or other lower living expenses then I dare them to try living in a big blue state or even a massive city and see if they can get a better paying job that's worth it to them) 

For the less geographically dense states, to them a digitized education is their panacea for delivering the same quality at a lower cost ... (the physical classroom is becoming more redundant than you already think) 

Oh you live in a richer neighbourhood and you do the same like other teachers in poorer states well you deserve a higher salary. Did not someone point out that teachers left a state for a better salary in an other state and those teachers got replaced by lesser educated/professional teachers?






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V-r0cK on 09 May 2018

I have a close friend that's a grade school teacher and this is what he tells me: (At least for some teachers in Canada)

- He makes +$100k/yr, but starting can be as low as $80k/yr
- He gets summers off with pay, he still gets the same yearly pay but he gets more during the months he works while less during the summer)
- He gets great benefits
- Teaching is ridiculously easyyy (yes you need to know your stuff) but he says he teaches the exact same thing every year, so its not hard at all if you've been doing the same stuff every year, giving/marking the same test/work etc..

So yea, he loves being a teacher and once you're in, you're pretty set and easy doing the same thing every year. Also scantrons makes marking even easier. And that's just being a grade school teacher. College/University professors get it even better!

Can't say the same for teachers in the US, but if its anything remotely similar to my friend then they have it pretty good too.

I do I feel bad for teachers that teach in the 'rough' neighborhoods.



V-r0cK on 09 May 2018
SpokenTruth said:
V-r0cK said:

It's very different.  Lower pay, lower benefits, more hours, more overall responsibility and more test score accountability.

Most US teachers would love to move to the Canadian or Scandanavian systems.

Well then that sucks.

We're neighbors yet so different lol  Also like how waiters/waitresses in the US only get paid by tips I hear, but in Canada they get paid at least minimum wage (+/- $14/hr) +tips.



V-r0cK on 09 May 2018
SpokenTruth said:
V-r0cK said:

Well then that sucks.

We're neighbors yet so different lol  Also like how waiters/waitresses in the US only get paid by tips I hear, but in Canada they get paid at least minimum wage (+/- $14/hr) +tips.

They get a wage here but it's just $2.13/hr.  They are often split among all wait staff, bar staff, table cleaning staff and sometimes the cooks.

That's really low :/



fatslob-:O on 09 May 2018
konnichiwa said:

Yeah it is, I just want to point out that strikes don't always have to be anti-consumer but a teachers strike is harder to do without hurting 'the consumers'. But if you work in a department where the work increases and the funds decreases especially in a economy that is doing good it should be normal that people get on strike?

Of course it is, that's why teachers unions are literally full of horse shit and just because the general economy is doing good doesn't mean that every sector has to perform as well either ... 

konnichiwa said:

Oh you live in a richer neighbourhood and you do the same like other teachers in poorer states well you deserve a higher salary. Did not someone point out that teachers left a state for a better salary in an other state and those teachers got replaced by lesser educated/professional teachers?

You'd have to be naive if you think that there's enough opening teacher positions in those states to be able to carry all of the teachers that are striking ... 

SpokenTruth said:

So you are ok with not having a raise for a decade as many teachers have had to deal with? 1.
So you are ok with being required to have a B.S. degree in education (as required since the No Child Left Behind Act) and yet not having a compensation increase along with it? 2.
So you are ok with making teachers pay for class room supplies with no compensation or tax write offs? 3.
So you are ok with having an increase in classroom sizes, an increase in responsibilities, an increase in role scope, an increase in test score accountability....all with no increase in compensation? 4.

1. Teachers hardly deserve a raise with a declining share of child population ... (only about 24% of our population is under the age of 18 and it'll only get lower in the coming decades as life expectancy keeps rising) 

2. I'm pretty sure that NCLB has been repealed and replaced with ESSA which means that it's the states themselves who decides teacher qualifications so 4-year college degrees aren't federally mandated anymore and that's a good thing since primary and middle schools don't need anything more than a high school diploma as far as teaching content is concerned ... (heck, I question if 4-year college degrees are necessary for high schools since many could probably competently get away with just 2-year college degrees) 

3. There should be a virtual classroom system to be able to host all of a content along with being able to send digital work and if they get smart, they can teach using no copyrighted material either thus reducing the necessity of having to loan out physical books or even having physical books at all too. (the only time paper handouts would be necessary is for administering standardized tests) If teachers didn't have to be boggled down by having to deal with a massive curriculum outside of what are supposed to be the essentials which just includes mathematics, english and science, then the only supplies they would have to worry about are science supplies but that's arguably a one time cost ... 

4. I'm sure the consumers will find it to be OK since they are getting the best value for their money. Just for illustration purposes, how were teachers previously able to cope with larger student/teacher ratio before ? FYI, the fact that teacher qualification doesn't require a bachelor's degree anymore means that many more faceless newbies who are just as desperate can replace them and the public aren't going to take their threats seriously for any longer ... 



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konnichiwa on 10 May 2018
fatslob-:O said:
konnichiwa said:

Yeah it is, I just want to point out that strikes don't always have to be anti-consumer but a teachers strike is harder to do without hurting 'the consumers'. But if you work in a department where the work increases and the funds decreases especially in a economy that is doing good it should be normal that people get on strike?

1) Of course it is, that's why teachers unions are literally full of horse shit and just because the general economy is doing good doesn't mean that every sector has to perform as well either ... 

konnichiwa said:

Oh you live in a richer neighbourhood and you do the same like other teachers in poorer states well you deserve a higher salary. Did not someone point out that teachers left a state for a better salary in an other state and those teachers got replaced by lesser educated/professional teachers?

2) You'd have to be naive if you think that there's enough opening teacher positions in those states to be able to carry all of the teachers that are striking ... 

 

1)  Ofcourse not but I think it is normal that when work increases year after year while funds decreases people going to question it, not that strike is a good answer.

2)  Well I meant PAOerfulone's post about teachers leaving the state because same work gets paid more in an other state.         






fatslob-:O on 10 May 2018
konnichiwa said:

1)  Ofcourse not but I think it is normal that when work increases year after year while funds decreases people going to question it, not that strike is a good answer.

2)  Well I meant PAOerfulone's post about teachers leaving the state because same work gets paid more in an other state.         

Work has only increased slightly and recently for teachers, it's still a far cry from what they were dealing with decades ago as I demonstrated in my previous post ... 

It's anecdotal but I was able to perfectly cope with a class size of 30 and the size got somewhat smaller towards the end of my graduation so I can only surmise that current K-12 teachers along with the students have it much easier than I did when I was growing up ...



contestgamer on 16 May 2018
SpokenTruth said:
John2290 said:

This, however if they truly are, and I suspect the large majority of them aren't, striking for better school room provisions, text books and bigger budgets then I'd support. It looks as if the few who are striking for the right reasons, the majority are just piling on and distorting the message by asking for higher wages when they already have more cushy jobs than half the work force and get paid well enough for it with extended breaks and all. Now if anyone has a proper reason to strike on for these reasons it's teachers in the UK and many countries in continental Europe. But as I said, the ones who are striking for better school room budgets should have their demands met and the rest, who have more than they need on that side of thing should get a salary cut for taking the time from childrens studies.

1. All of them are striking for better overall funding.

2. Cushy job?  I assure you that there is nothing cushy about it.  Where does this notion even come from?

3. Pay is only the extreme low end of Bachelor's degree salaries.

4. The breaks are not as extensive as you think they are.  Do not equate student vacations/holidays with teacher vacation/holidays.

5. Teachers have to pay for classroom school supplies and their tax writeoffs were revoked thanks to Trump's tax plan.

Maybe they should try working at a factory or mine for a few months. Then I'd like them to go back to teaching and see them still complaining.



fatslob-:O on 16 May 2018
SpokenTruth said:

1. Are you assuming that the year to year teacher count is static and unchanging?  Are you assuming that all states have the same teacher to student ratio? The same influx to retiree ratio?  The same new student to graduate ratio?

2. It was not repealed and replaced.  This proves you don't know anything about reauthorizing the Elementary and Secondary Education Act.  NCLB and ESSA are reauthorizations of the ESEA with new provisions. And yes, the 4 year degree requirement is still in effect because it is mandated at the federal level and enforced at the state level.  This didn't change from NCLB to ESSA.  It doesn't matter if you don't think they need a 4 year degree or not.  They still require it.  Go ahead.  Pull up any public education teacher hiring page from any school district from any state.

3. Irrelevant.  You can suggest the education system needs to be revamped (and I don't disagree), but that doesn't mean you can underpay the teachers.

4. Invalid. See point number 2.

1. The general trend is a decreasing student to teacher ratio so they still have it easier regardless ... 

2. That's not what every reputable news sites reported and the new law has very little to do with the Elementary and Secondary Education Act ... (your signature is really ironic in this case) 

And no the 4 year degree requirement is not in effect according to the Nevada Department of Education, this just shows who *really* doesn't know anything between us but it ain't me ... (a teacher, STRAIGHT UP doesn't require a bachelor's degree anymore and I'm glad that Obama along with the rest of congress saw it my way to scrap NCLB's "highly qualified teacher" provision so that any states may change their certification requirements)

3. "Underpay" is subjective, it's what the public itself is willing to compensate for them and I don't blame one bit when teaching K-12 has nearly become a commodity. Better luck to them next time and get their master's degree to teach as a professor or maybe in a new life where they aim for a higher value skill set like engineering or being a doctor ? (when a profession is largely unionized like teachers are, it means they don't value their individual bargaining power anymore and that they've lost confidence in providing their own perceived to society)

4. LOL, I see you dodged my illustration of how teacher supply isn't a problem regardless ...



fatslob-:O on 17 May 2018
SpokenTruth said:

1. A general trend nationally does not mean the same trend in the states that are having strikes. 

2. Then you just proved you don't know what reauthroization of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act is.

You should also dig deeper into your research. No longer using NCLBA requirements doesn't remove the Bachelor's degree requirement.
Nevada Department of Education K-8 License Requirements

3. Actually, most of the public support the strikes.
https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/04/26/604117045/npr-ipsos-poll-most-americans-support-teachers-right-to-strike
https://newsok.com/article/5586400/poll-do-you-support-an-oklahoma-teacher-strike
https://www.denverpost.com/2018/04/23/support-teacher-raises-poll/
https://thetylt.com/politics/teacher-strike-west-virginia-oklahoma
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/4/24/17274808/teacher-strikes-public-opinion-poll
https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2018/04/26/26100824/poll-americans-support-teachers-right-to-strike

The problem is the public doesn't directly decide teacher pay....or this wouldn't even be an issue.

4. Still invalid.  See points 1 and 2.

1. Hmm, I wonder about that ... 

Student/Teacher ratio (1995 vs 2015) by State

West Virginia: 14.6 vs 14.1 

Kentucky: 16.9 vs 16.4 

Oklahoma: 15.7 vs 16.3

Arizona: 19.6 vs 23.1 

Colorado: 18.5 vs 17.4

North Carolina: 16.2 vs 15.5

You don't have much of a point either way regardless since most of the statewide teacher strikes have often seen improvements in student to teacher ratios in these states but what really kills your concern in this case doesn't even factor in quality of life improvements to teaching with tools such as the internet or computers and in the coming decade we'll soon have augmented/virtual reality, automation and advanced artificial intelligence so despite their stagnant compensation they're still getting a far superior working environment than decades ago ... 

2. Oh look at that, you've finally acknowledged that NCLB was repealed and no ESSA is not a straight up reauthorization of the ESEA since they both hold noticeable differences between each other but great attempt on trying to pass on a false equivalency ... (it's like saying NCLB is a reauthorization of ESEA) 

The bachelor's degree requirement is up to the state so it's NOT federally mandated and you're wrong about that previously ... 

3. Really ? Then why isn't it reflected very often in their representatives ? And your comparison is flawed too in this case since you're using national polling to represent a state. Since when did American public = Arizona/Colorado/Kentucky/North Carolina/Oklahoma/West Virginia public all of a sudden ? 

What's more is that you also included online website polls where anyone can vote LOL ... (I can tell you don't care about keeping intellectual honesty anymore in this discussion) 

The public is also in conflict with wanting to raise taxes to fund teacher compensation as shown in the same study you linked to multiple times by AP FYI ... 

4. Your first point has been disproved for the most part and for your second point you just shifted goal posts to my counterpoint ...