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Forums - General Discussion - Half A Billion Fewer Animals Are Being Killed Every Year Since 2007 As People Eat Less Meat

DonFerrari said:

And still alive... how many vegans have died before 70y?

To be honest, there's no one right and healthy way of eating.

Vegans that do not know anything about nutrition may have serious health problems (in fact, this has happened already) while other vegans that pay attention to their nutrients requirements do not. Similarly, people eating too much meat while completely ignoring vitamins and minerals may have serious problems, but eating meat is not bad per se. There are a lot of examples of countries with very high life expectancy where meat is consumed regularly. It all depends on what other things you eat together with your meat. Vegans stating that meat is bad period just don't know shit about nutrition. However, it is important to eat healthy meat...unfortunately, many people just eat junk meat from animals raised in awful conditions.



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last92 said:
DonFerrari said:

And still alive... how many vegans have died before 70y?

To be honest, there's no one right and healthy way of eating.

Vegans that do not know anything about nutrition may have serious health problems (in fact, this has happened already) while other vegans that pay attention to their nutrients requirements do not. Similarly, people eating too much meat while completely ignoring vitamins and minerals may have serious problems, but eating meat is not bad per se. There are a lot of examples of countries with very high life expectancy where meat is consumed regularly. It all depends on what other things you eat together with your meat. Vegans stating that meat is bad period just don't know shit about nutrition. However, it is important to eat healthy meat...unfortunately, many people just eat junk meat from animals raised in awful conditions.

I do agree with all you said =]



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last92 said:

White bread, refined sugar, white pasta and pizza...those are all bad for your body. Try to switch to whole grain stuff. 

Thanks for the advice, but I really like all those.

Question though, in what field is your education? Just wondering if you have any formal education about biology or biochemistry.

I'm asking because I want to know how sugars that break down into glucose/fructose/galactose/lactose are somehow more toxic than ketones, that are a secondary source of energy, and although more efficient, raise blood acidity levels and are harder on the liver and kidneys.



Kaneman! said:
last92 said:

White bread, refined sugar, white pasta and pizza...those are all bad for your body. Try to switch to whole grain stuff. 

Thanks for the advice, but I really like all those.

Question though, in what field is your education? Just wondering if you have any formal education about biology or biochemistry.

I'm asking because I want to know how sugars that break down into glucose/fructose/galactose/lactose are somehow more toxic than ketones, that are a secondary source of energy, and although more efficient, raise blood acidity levels and are harder on the liver and kidneys.

Well, for one thing, galactose will eat your planet. 



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Been trying to eat less and less meat every week.



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The number now is 56 billion killed every year.

So it was 56.5 10 years ago? That's alright.
Also doesn't include the trillion+ fish every year.



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Kaneman! said:

Thanks for the advice, but I really like all those.

Question though, in what field is your education? Just wondering if you have any formal education about biology or biochemistry.

I'm asking because I want to know how sugars that break down into glucose/fructose/galactose/lactose are somehow more toxic than ketones, that are a secondary source of energy, and although more efficient, raise blood acidity levels and are harder on the liver and kidneys.

My field of education is totally unrelated to nutrition, but I've been interested in this stuff for years. I was an obese boy that managed to lose more than 30Kg by doing almost the exact opposite of what nutritionists typically tell you to do if you want to lose weight and I did this simply by totally removing carbs except from fruits and leafy greens from my diet and doing intermittent fasting around 10 years ago, way before the intermittent fasting craze started. I've been a thin guy ever since.  It makes sense...if you want to lose weight, don't eat, it's as simple as that (assuming you're an healthy individual that doesn't suffer from weird pathologies). Forget about the "6 small meals a day", that's just ridiculous and has no scientific support whatsoever. Actually, there's a high chance that eating frequently while being in a caloric deficit will end up slowing your metabolism. This is why I stopped trusting nutritionists and official organizations. The thing with carbs, mainly refined grains (but whole grains are very similar), is that they are a very poor food from a nutritional perspective. When compared with other food, they have little vitamins, little minerals, little fibers, they basically only serve as a source of Kcals. There's absolutely no reason why you would want to consume those apart from the fact that they're tasty. And this is coming from an italian guy, I know how delicious pasta and pizza are, but I still try to avoid them. There's simply no benefit in them for your body and whatever good thing may be contained there, you can easily get from other sources.

Now, carbs are not really toxic. The problem is that they just may mess up your hormones, leading to insuline resistance, fat accumulation and carbs dependence when consumed in large quantities. Ultimately, this may lead to several negative things like diabetes. Ever wondered why diabetes and obesity are such a huge problem in today's society? Well, it all started with sugars and refined carbs, right? Hardly a coincidence. The more carbs you eat, the less your body will want to use fat because glucose is a much more readily available source of energy than fats. This has simply to do with the hormonal response of your body. 

As for the ketogenic diet, as I said I was just curious and I'm experimenting with it on my body. It is true that I'm losing body fat like crazy (I gained some weight in the last 2 years and I wanted to get rid of it)...I regularly check my body composition using the (probably not so accurate) scale at my gym and I'm just astonished at how fast my body fat % is going down. Still, I don't fell like recommending it yet. I'm not experiencing any negative downside for the moment, but since there are no serious long-term studies on the matter that I'm aware of, I will just refrain from giving you any made up information. Short-term studies however are available and encouraging. Keep in mind, however, that the proponents of this diet always stress the importance of vegetables. This diet can indeed be taxing on your organis and this is why we need to consume huge amounts of veggies to help them in their functions. Furthermore, we do not eat a lot of protein...this is, unfortunately, another common misconception. We want to eat just the "right" amount of protein, which is probably lower than what many normal people eat daily. This is why you should completely ignore anyone that tries to demonize the keto diet and starts by saying that those who practice it eat tons of meat and fats with a little veggies here and there. This is totally false. We eat tons of veggies because we need them to counteract the possible negative effects that come from being in ketosis. And it is totally possible to have a vegan ketogenic diet, mind you, so...you should probably ignore angry vegans that try to tell you why you shouldn't do a ketogenic diet as well. They just have no clue. There's plenty of fats and proteins in the vegetal world. Also, if by "blood acidity" you're referring to ketoacidosis, well, that is basically a myth. Ketosis and ketoacidosis are two totally different things, the latter being a serious pathological state related to alcoholism or type-1 diabetes. If you're not an alcoholist or a diabetic, it's almost impossible for you to suffer from ketoacidosis. 

Last edited by last92 - on 02 March 2018

I've cut back heavily on eating meat. I try not to eat meat more than twice a week.



last92 said:

a) The thing with carbs, mainly refined grains (but whole grains are very similar), is that they are a very poor food from a nutritional perspective. When compared with other food, they have little vitamins, little minerals, little fibers, they basically only serve as a source of Kcals. 

b) Now, carbs are not really toxic. The problem is that they just may mess up your hormones, leading to insuline resistance, fat accumulation and carbs dependence when consumed in large quantities. 

c)  Also, if by "blood acidity" you're referring to ketoacidosis, well, that is basically a myth. Ketosis and ketoacidosis are two totally different things, the latter being a serious pathological state related to alcoholism or type-1 diabetes. If you're not an alcoholist or a diabetic, it's almost impossible for you to suffer from ketoacidosis. 

a) Yes, I understand that. But you should not just class food with high carbohydrate value as "carbs". Because obviously carbohydrates in itself can't contain vitamins, minerals, etc. But food high in carbohydrates includes fruit, dairy and nuts, and I presume those don't fit into the aforementioned "carbs" group. I also understand that you point out refined carbohydrates, which is a slightly misleading word, because some of those are natural as well, which brings me to point

b) I agree with that. Large quantities of anything is unhealthy, including carbohydrates. But if anything, then each human's nutritional needs are specific - so overconsumption can be a problem for people misjudging their food intake. From my experience I can tell you, that carbohydrates are necessary for me, as they're the fastest source of energy. But I don't eat a lot of food daily, and have kept my weight at a consistent level for about 10 years, without doing any nutritional planning. That being said, it might well come back to me negatively in a few years.

c) I'm not talking about ketoacidosis, that would be far exceeding the pH levels I was talking about. It was just a comparison to what you termed as "poison". Obviously neither carbohydrates, nor ketones in itself are poisons. But higher amount of ketone bodies does lower the pH value of blood, that's what I was alluding to.



Kaneman! said:

a) Yes, I understand that. But you should not just class food with high carbohydrate value as "carbs". Because obviously carbohydrates in itself can't contain vitamins, minerals, etc. But food high in carbohydrates includes fruit, dairy and nuts, and I presume those don't fit into the aforementioned "carbs" group. I also understand that you point out refined carbohydrates, which is a slightly misleading word, because some of those are natural as well, which brings me to point

b) I agree with that. Large quantities of anything is unhealthy, including carbohydrates. But if anything, then each human's nutritional needs are specific - so overconsumption can be a problem for people misjudging their food intake. From my experience I can tell you, that carbohydrates are necessary for me, as they're the fastest source of energy. But I don't eat a lot of food daily, and have kept my weight at a consistent level for about 10 years, without doing any nutritional planning. That being said, it might well come back to me negatively in a few years.

c) I'm not talking about ketoacidosis, that would be far exceeding the pH levels I was talking about. It was just a comparison to what you termed as "poison". Obviously neither carbohydrates, nor ketones in itself are poisons. But higher amount of ketone bodies does lower the pH value of blood, that's what I was alluding to.

Absolutely, I agree with you. I mainly talk about refined grains and sugar. Those are without any doubt unhealthy. There are of course good foods with a high amount of carbs, like fruit. But fruit is good not because it has carbs, but because of the high content of vitamins and minerals. However, carbohydrates as a macronutrient are simply not a necessity for the body. You may feel tired or dizzy if you suddenly cut your carbs, but that's simply because your body is not used to using fat as fuel. There's a fairly well known phenomenon known as "keto flu" that happens when one starts a keto diet. You basically feel like crap because your body is deprived from the glucose it had used until then as energy but doesn't realize that fat is there to be used as energy yet. Little by little, the body adapts and you finally feel better than before when the body starts using fat as its primary source of energy instead of glucose. This is called "fat adaptation". However, I personally didn't experience keto flu, maybe because I did everything gradually.

As for blood acidity, it is possible that a ketogenic diet can lead to that, but I personally find it a little hard to believe. The amount of ketones that is released when in ketosis is not very high and if you provide your body with what it needs to wash away those ketones efficiently there will probably be no problem at all. But I plan to have some general analysis in the near future to see exactly what ketosis is doing to my body. This is part of the experiment after all :P

Anyway, I just found a very interesting article about blood acidity and ketosis in general. Again, I'm not reccommending doing a ketogenic diet, especially if you're a healthy individual, but it looked like you were interested in this subject. 

https://drjockers.com/ketogenic-diet-acidic/