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Forums - Movies & TV - The Fans Have Spoken, Last Jedi Drops A Massive 68%

Edit: Never mind, not worth it.



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Azuren said:
Goodnightmoon said:

Yeah because the script is the only thing important in cinema, a thousand people working in a movie and at the end we only valorate the work of one of them, because that's all what cinema is about, a story written on a piece of paper... oh wait...

So is this a roundabout way of admitting the script is garbage?

Nope, I already said this in a previous comment, a big part of why this movie its so exciting, unpredictable and risky is its script, Luke being more interesting than ever has a lot to do with the script too, the biggest reasons why some people think is bad is because they completely confuse the concept of "simple plot" with "bad script"and they don't really understand the concept of plothole at all, the script does have some but not even half of what some claim, not telling something aboutn a character isn't a plothole at all for example, not knowing much about Snore and the first order is not a plothole under any possible definition of the term yet many claim it is.



Goodnightmoon said:
Azuren said:

So is this a roundabout way of admitting the script is garbage?

Nope, I already said this in a previous comment, a big part of why this movie its so exciting, unpredictable and risky is its script, Luke being more interesting than ever has a lot to do with the script too, the biggest reasons why some people think is bad is because they completely confuse the concept of "simple plot" with "bad script"and they don't really understand the concept of plothole at all, the script does have some but not even half of what some claim, not telling something aboutn a character isn't a plothole at all for example, not knowing much about Snore and the first order is not a plothole under any possible definition of the term yet many claim it is.

Oh, so then you're just a fan of established characters acting grossly out of character and the story not explaining large pieces of the story before killing then off. Top it off with a little (see: big) Mary Sue and you've got a pretty good fanfic, I guess.



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mZuzek said:
Goodnightmoon said:

Yeah because the script is the only thing important in cinema, a thousand people working in a movie to make it look and sound incredible and at the end we only valorate the work of one of them, the one that wrote the script, because that's all what cinema is about, a story written on a piece of paper... oh wait...

Once upon a time someone said there's 3 things your movie needs to be great: script, script, and script.

I disagree to some extent, but not much. A script is at least a good 50% of a movie to me.

Well that's bullshit. It higly depends on the movie, most of my favourite movies have great scripts sure, but there are great movies with just "ok" scripts. Star Wars has never been exactly Citizen Kane when it comes to scripts yet the original trilogy is widely considered a masterpiece. Cinema and literature are not the same, to say the most important thing of a movie is the script  is almost like saying the most important thing of music is the lyrics, it highly depends on the kind of movie or music we are talking about but in general I won't consider that a true statement at all.

Last edited by Goodnightmoon - on 30 December 2017

Azuren said:
JakDaSnack said:

Pwned!!!!

You're one to talk. Did you ever get around to defending Mary Rey?

Lol are you kidding me?  You didn’t counter several of my points, you misquoted (for a second time) my initial post, and then you started using strawman arguments.  I was done with you, lol.  Not to mention I never even claimed that Luke was a Mary Sue, I was just playing devils advocate cus you started the comparison.  Despite me doing that, you’re best arguments were to use the EU which is no longer cannon, and the whole trilogy when the argument was about a character in one movie vs a character in another.  You lost bud lol.  If you want to continue this, let’s actually talk about the topic at hand “TLJ”. None of this comparison crap.  

Rey’s force powers were explained by snoke and Luke.

she wasn’t liked by any of the new characters she met.

She failed all of her tasks.

She was man handled by Snoke and was unable to beat Kylo Ren.

so tell me, how was she a Mary Sue in TLJ?



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JakDaSnack said:
Azuren said:

You're one to talk. Did you ever get around to defending Mary Rey?

Lol are you kidding me?  You didn’t counter several of my points, you misquoted (for a second time) my initial post, and then you started using strawman arguments.  I was done with you, lol.  Not to mention I never even claimed that Luke was a Mary Sue, I was just playing devils advocate cus you started the comparison.  Despite me doing that, you’re best arguments were to use the EU which is no longer cannon, and the whole trilogy when the argument was about a character in one movie vs a character in another.  You lost bud lol.  If you want to continue this, let’s actually talk about the topic at hand “TLJ”. None of this comparison crap.  

Rey’s force powers were explained by snoke and Luke.

she wasn’t liked by any of the new characters she met.

She failed all of her tasks.

She was man handled by Snoke and was unable to beat Kylo Ren.

so tell me, how was she a Mary Sue in TLJ?

I countered you every time, and everytime you did shit like flat out deny things that happened in the movies happened. So no, you didn't address anything. Luke being a good pilot has been canon since episode 4, but you just deny deny deny.

 

As far as the last Jedi is concerned, tell me: is she suddenly unable to get a grip on matter level force techniques? Is there a 3-6 year time skip to explain added skills? Is she still Chewy's new bff? Does literally everything still hinge on her, regardless of the efforts of anyone else?



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I've always find the complain that Reyn is a mary sue laughable, not only its obvious nobody would complain about it if she was a man but also it looks liek the term mary sue is exclusively used by insecure men when they see a very capable woman as if they feel ofended by her. Is also kind of laughable when people try to say Luke was such an incredible character when he was actually a cliche of the usual hero/chosen one and never pretended to be more than that (remember this movie was made for 12 years old kids?). Don't get me wrontg, I love Luke but to suggest he was som kind of complex character... lol



Azuren said:
JakDaSnack said:

Lol are you kidding me?  You didn’t counter several of my points, you misquoted (for a second time) my initial post, and then you started using strawman arguments.  I was done with you, lol.  Not to mention I never even claimed that Luke was a Mary Sue, I was just playing devils advocate cus you started the comparison.  Despite me doing that, you’re best arguments were to use the EU which is no longer cannon, and the whole trilogy when the argument was about a character in one movie vs a character in another.  You lost bud lol.  If you want to continue this, let’s actually talk about the topic at hand “TLJ”. None of this comparison crap.  

Rey’s force powers were explained by snoke and Luke.

she wasn’t liked by any of the new characters she met.

She failed all of her tasks.

She was man handled by Snoke and was unable to beat Kylo Ren.

so tell me, how was she a Mary Sue in TLJ?

I countered you every time, and everytime you did shit like flat out deny things that happened in the movies happened. So no, you didn't address anything. Luke being a good pilot has been canon since episode 4, but you just deny deny deny.

 

As far as the last Jedi is concerned, tell me: is she suddenly unable to get a grip on matter level force techniques? Is there a 3-6 year time skip to explain added skills? Is she still Chewy's new bff? Does literally everything still hinge on her, regardless of the efforts of anyone else?

Sure ya did bud. You wer using hyperbole, taking one line of dialogue and blowing it up.  I pointed this out and your response was “nuh uh, your wrong cus reasons”.  That’s not a counter lol. Anyways.....you’re obviously gonna disagree, so let’s move on.

Doesnt matter, it was established in TFA, however it was explained in TLJ. She didn’t add any skills in TLJ. They never showed a tight bond between the two.  Nope, it hinged on Finn, who failed, then Leia who failed, then Luke who succeeded.  



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Goodnightmoon said:
I've always find the complain that reyn is a Mary sue laughable, its so obvious nobody would complain about it if she was a man. And also kind of laughable when people try to say Luke was such an incredible character when he was actually a cliche of the usual hero/chosen one and never pretended to be more than that (remember this movie was made for 12 years old kids?). Don't get me wrontg, I love Luke but to suggest he was som kind of complex character... lol

1. Luke was never a chosen one.

2. Rey is a complete and utter Mary Sue, and the only real defense against it is head-in-the-sand denial.



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Azuren said:
Goodnightmoon said:
I've always find the complain that reyn is a Mary sue laughable, its so obvious nobody would complain about it if she was a man. And also kind of laughable when people try to say Luke was such an incredible character when he was actually a cliche of the usual hero/chosen one and never pretended to be more than that (remember this movie was made for 12 years old kids?). Don't get me wrontg, I love Luke but to suggest he was som kind of complex character... lol

1. Luke was never a chosen one.

2. Rey is a complete and utter Mary Sue, and the only real defense against it is head-in-the-sand denial.

Didn't said he was but his whole character follows the stereotype of the hero/chosen one that's just cute, nice and good.

Even if she was a mary sue I don't find her offensive at all, in fact i find her quite likable and very well performed by Daisy Ridley, she is less complex than I would like her to be but then again, so was Luke at first.