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Forums - PC Discussion - Radeon RX Vega revealed

bananaking21 said:
vivster said:

No. Most likely 2 generations after this one. So midrange of what ever comes after Navi.

damn, that would be an impressive jump in hardware. so we are looking at at least 13-14 teraflops for next gen? 

I hope so. I doubt we will go above 15TFLOPS though. Benchmark next Gen will be native 4K 30fps across all games. 12-15TFLOPS is more than enough for that.



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Pemalite said:

Ryzen 1700 ain't happening.
People expecting Ryzen with the Xbox One X. The Xbox One X was timed right, it had a higher price, there were potential "hints" like Microsft showcasing Xbox next to Ryzen... And I was right then that Ryzen wasn't happening. And I doubt it will happen next gen either.

What's the alternative though, if next gen doesn't use Ryzen?



Pemalite said:
thismeintiel said:

As was the GPU that the PS4 used.  It needs to be if it's going to be in a $399 box. 

It actually doesn't though.
Besides... When the Playstation 4 launched we only had Graphics Graphics Core Next 2. There wasn't a massive feature set divide at an architectural level. (The Playstation 4 adopted some improvements anyway.)

Vega is a 2017 part.
2018 we get Navi.
2019 we get something else.
2020 when I expect next gen consoles to drop... We should have something else again.

thismeintiel said:

To make the PS5 with the specs I'm expecting, a Vega 64, at least a Ryzen 1700

Ryzen 1700 ain't happening.
People expecting Ryzen with the Xbox One X. The Xbox One X was timed right, it had a higher price, there were potential "hints" like Microsft showcasing Xbox next to Ryzen... And I was right then that Ryzen wasn't happening. And I doubt it will happen next gen either.

thismeintiel said:

No one is paying that much for a console, as history continues to show us time and time, again.  Give it another two years and all those prices will be at least cut in half.

Hardware itself doesn't dramatically change in manufacturing costs.

In a few years, AMD will have more efficient, faster and cheaper hardware at various price points than Vega.

fatslob-:O said:

Eh, it will be fine ... 

Vega 10 is 484 mm^2@14nm so it'll be a long while that sort of performance will become mainstream. The only reason to prefer newer GPU microachitectures is from a feature set perspective rather than a performance perspective ... (render target reads (Gen 9), independent thread scheduling (Volta), underestimate conservative rasterization (Gen 9/Vega), or maybe even GPU software rasterization(programmable rasterization stage!)) 

PS5 wishlist should include the following ... (EUV should be cost efficient by then)

built on Samsung's 4nm MCBFETs (APU should be produced for 2021 release and should give 4x density improvement) 

20 TFlop/s 

16GB HBM (gen 3)

2 TB/s bandwidth (quad channel) 

Don't feel like we need much more DRAM capacity anymore since memory bandwidth is a big bottleneck going into the future with things such as incoherent ray traversal for ray tracing or volumetric rendering ... 

By 2020, I would be hoping to be staring down the barrel of Direct X 13 with hardware feature sets to match.

We already know that Graphics Core Next falls short in the efficiency stakes as well, Vega does try and make amends in that aspect, but it's still not going to be beating nVidia... Let alone hardware in 2020.

Bofferbrauer2 said:

Not with that power consumption it won't. That's just too much for a console. They would need to bring clock speeds down to about 800-900 Mhz to tame that beast into a console, and by that point it wouldn't even have twice the power of a PS4 Pro anymore.

Well. Depending on binning they could retain higher clock rates than that and still result in less power consumption.

For example... Take the Fury X. AMD took that 275w GPU @ 1050Mhz, dropped the clocks by a only 50mhz and managed to shave 100w off the power consumption at 175w.

In-fact, the Nano was not only faster than the base Fury, but used less power than that as well... And they were the same chips. - Base fury even had parts of the chip disabled.

AMD took only the best chips that would operate at a high clockrate with low voltages.
Of course, that does increase costs as well.

But these are all high-end parts. Consoles can't afford to have high-end parts.

Bofferbrauer2 said:

I'd rather say it will be based on Navi, Vega's sucessor. It could use 64 NCU but at a much lower clock speed (I guess around 1000 Mhz) unless Navi clocks much better than it's predecessors

Agreed. Navi or newer makes far more sense.

Slap&Ride said:

 

Yes to all You wrote. SSD for games of over 100GB size is expensive. Load times are a factor, and HDD is slow. And yes 16GB is ok for a console. But if 1080p games need 8GB, then 4k games might need 16GB of ram. But that’s only for games with the same amount of assets, same size of landscape, same amount of objects in the environment. With only the texture resolution higher. The next gen needs more then just 4k. Hope for 64GB… and a price below 699;)  

(640K Ought to be Enough for Anyone)

 

SSD Caching might be a thing/Hybrid Drive. Use a mechanical drive for sheer storage capacity, SSD caching to bolster performance.
Hopefully they use faster optical drives, install times are so painful on consoles, it's retarded.

16GB would seem pretty inadequate next-gen in my eyes.  It's only a 30% increase over Scorpio, I would not be surprised if we see 24-32GB of total Ram next gen.

Need to remember that System Memory and Graphics Memory is shared in console land.
On the PC, 6-8GB GPU's are becoming the norm today in the mid-range with 16GB system memory backing that up.
In a few years time I would expect GPU's to trend towards 12-16GB in the mid-range.

Next consoles will most probably use Ryzen. There's just not much else to choose by then, the only other possibility is an ARM based chip

Will there ever be a DX 13? By the way Microsoft is handling DirectX right now 12.x versions seem sadly more likely.

The Fury Nano couldn't hold those 1000W unless undervolted and with much better cooling, most of the time the cruise speed was actually more like 900-950 Mhz with most Fury nano cards out of the box. Also note that the Nano was very rare because AMD needed to go cherry-picking quite a lot to get chips who actually did drop as much in power consumption for the Nano. Considering the wide range between base clock and turbo clock I do expect a similar thing to happen with Vega, and that the Sweet Spot for Vega is actually still below that base clock speed. While I agree it's higher than I anticipated in my previous post (because I didn't know the clock speeds back then), I still think it's somewhere in the 950-1100 Mhz range

RAM is expensive. Not just right now, but for a console manufacturer in general. There's a reason why the PS360 had such severely limited amounts of RAM. While 16 GiB seems as not enough by then, do remember that the same was already said when the PS4 and Xbox ONE where revealed. Only if RAM prices drop by a lot (like, 16GiB for less than or about 50$ on consumer market lot) will there be a real chance of more memory for the next next next gen consoles. I'm hoping for 32 GiB too by then (24 is an odd number in terms of RAM), but there's no guarantee an that just yet.

SSDs are still too expensive for consoles, so I don't expect them to sport one unless they become less expensive than HDDs. An SSHD might be a possibility though, but since those are very rare and seemingly on the way out I don't expect that to happen either.



Slap&Ride said:
vivster said:

If they'd actually need any amount of RAM beyond 16GB they would have to come with SSDs which I highly doubt. 16GB for a console in 2021 is absolutely fine and will certainly not be a bottleneck. 16GB or 32GB is not going to make a difference.

Yes to all You wrote. SSD for games of over 100GB size is expensive. Load times are a factor, and HDD is slow. And yes 16GB is ok for a console. But if 1080p games need 8GB, then 4k games might need 16GB of ram. But that’s only for games with the same amount of assets, same size of landscape, same amount of objects in the environment. With only the texture resolution higher. The next gen needs more then just 4k. Hope for 64GB… and a price below 699;)  

(640K Ought to be Enough for Anyone)

 

That 640k always gets quoted out of context. At the time, most computers had 64 or even less RAM, with 128k for truly high-end machines. Nobody expected either DOS or the IBM PC and it's clones to survive for such a long time where the 640k would become a limiting factor.

16 GiB will be a real bottleneck by then, for 2 reasons: First one is the texture size and along with it the complexity of any given scene. GPUs with less than 4 GiB are already starting to be limiting here without texture packs or ultra details, and that will only get worse over time. There's a reason why there where so many hoping for Vega to come with 16GiB instead of 8 GiB. Second is for the CPU workload, especially when more sophisticated AI routines and/or loads of visible units are supposed to come into play



vivster said:
Trumpstyle said:

My bold prediction is coming truer and truer. Nvidia will be the gpu in the next consoles.

Sony and Microsoft will be forced to use Nvidia in next-gen consoles because Amd gpus is just so bad compared to Nvidia.

This vega gpu needed 50% more die size(50%+ more transistors), a watercooler, hbm2 and almost twice the power (watt usage) to barely beat the geforce 1080. Expect the watercooler version have about 0-5% more performance then geforce 1080 and the non water cooler version to lose.

This card is hilariously bad, it's worse than polaris architecture (the gpu in ps4 pro and xbox one x). I don't know how AMD manage to make a card worse than their previously.

I still stand by this. Ps5 will have 4-6 ryzen cpu cores, a midrange nvidia gpu(whatever arhitecture comes after volta), 16gb gddr6 and 2 tb non-ssd drive. 2020 released time(will be using 7 nm Euv) 399$ and non backwards compatibility.

If Sony go amd gpu expect instead 2019 release date(will be using 7 nm non-Euv), 8 ryzen cpu cores, 8-9 teraflops navi gpu(might be polaris architecture if Navi is a disaster as Vega) but will be backwards compatibility.

The current consoles are using mobile AMD APUs. Why would you think that console makers won't use bad GPUs? That's their MO.

Sony and Microsoft aren't using bad GPUs, xbox one had a badly performing card. Ps4 was using cut-down radeon 7870, mid range gpu. Ps4 pro same, radeon 480 gpu. Those Gpus aren't bad, they are decent. Xbox one x gpu is probably superior than radeon 580 because of the bandwidth from the memory.

You also make a bit confusing comments in this thread :) First you say Sony and microsoft uses bad GPU than you say ps5 will have 14 TF which is unrealistic unless they w8 for 5 nm(Don't think they will w8 that long).



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Slap&Ride said:
Trumpstyle said:

My bold prediction is coming truer and truer. Nvidia will be the gpu in the next consoles.

Sony and Microsoft will be forced to use Nvidia in next-gen consoles because Amd gpus is just so bad compared to Nvidia.

This vega gpu needed 50% more die size(50%+ more transistors), a watercooler, hbm2 and almost twice the power (watt usage) to barely beat the geforce 1080. Expect the watercooler version have about 0-5% more performance then geforce 1080 and the non water cooler version to lose.

This card is hilariously bad, it's worse than polaris architecture (the gpu in ps4 pro and xbox one x). I don't know how AMD manage to make a card worse than their previously.

I still stand by this. Ps5 will have 4-6 ryzen cpu cores, a midrange nvidia gpu(whatever arhitecture comes after volta), 16gb gddr6 and 2 tb non-ssd drive. 2020 released time(will be using 7 nm Euv) 399$ and non backwards compatibility.

If Sony go amd gpu expect instead 2019 release date(will be using 7 nm non-Euv), 8 ryzen cpu cores, 8-9 teraflops navi gpu(might be polaris architecture if Navi is a disaster as Vega) but will be backwards compatibility.

AMD and NVidia in one console? Means problems with optimization. Smaller prize cuts then with all AMD products. Different architectures and hardware philosophes. PS5 Will be all AMD with low to middle range chips. Or NVidia GPU and 16 core ARM CPU ?

 

Amd cpu (ryzen) and nvidia gpu works great on PC, there is no reason why it should not work on console.

About smaller price cuts. That's why I meantion sony and microsoft will be forced to use nvidia gpu because amd is falling so far behind nvidia. Microsoft and Sony would rather use only AMD (an APU for 1 chip(cpu+gpu in 1chip)), but with nvidia they will be using discrete cpu and discrete gpu (2 chips). This will be slightly more expensive.

 

I don't believe arm cpu+nvidia gpu as APU. The Cpu is just to weak for going an ARM.



6x master league achiever in starcraft2

Beaten Sigrun on God of war mode

Beaten DOOM ultra-nightmare with NO endless ammo-rune, 2x super shotgun and no decoys on ps4 pro.

1-0 against Grubby in Wc3 frozen throne ladder!!

Trumpstyle said:
vivster said:

The current consoles are using mobile AMD APUs. Why would you think that console makers won't use bad GPUs? That's their MO.

Sony and Microsoft aren't using bad GPUs, xbox one had a badly performing card. Ps4 was using cut-down radeon 7870, mid range gpu. Ps4 pro same, radeon 480 gpu. Those Gpus aren't bad, they are decent. Xbox one x gpu is probably superior than radeon 580 because of the bandwidth from the memory.

You also make a bit confusing comments in this thread :) First you say Sony and microsoft uses bad GPU than you say ps5 will have 14 TF which is unrealistic unless they w8 for 5 nm(Don't think they will w8 that long).

I said 12-15.

Why would you need to w8 wait for 5nm? Vega can already do easily over 10 and Navi will improve on that. The gen after Navi can make this happen. Dunno if it's able to do it on an APU but it pretty much has to. I don't really want to think about a sub 12TFLOPS PS5.



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Should''t we be talking and wanting benchmarks before turning a GPU thread into "PS5 GPU the thread"?.

I personally would like to see how it stacks against the 1080/ti variants from 1080p to 4k and not just cherry picked title that AMD wants to roll with.



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vivster said:
Trumpstyle said:

Sony and Microsoft aren't using bad GPUs, xbox one had a badly performing card. Ps4 was using cut-down radeon 7870, mid range gpu. Ps4 pro same, radeon 480 gpu. Those Gpus aren't bad, they are decent. Xbox one x gpu is probably superior than radeon 580 because of the bandwidth from the memory.

You also make a bit confusing comments in this thread :) First you say Sony and microsoft uses bad GPU than you say ps5 will have 14 TF which is unrealistic unless they w8 for 5 nm(Don't think they will w8 that long).

I said 12-15.

Why would you need to w8 wait for 5nm? Vega can already do easily over 10 and Navi will improve on that. The gen after Navi can make this happen. Dunno if it's able to do it on an APU but it pretty much has to. I don't really want to think about a sub 12TFLOPS PS5.

Power consumption, though. Even the Xbox One X doesn't seem to consume more than ~160W and that's on a vapour chamber cooler and a $499 console. Even the original PS3 / X360 didn't consume more than some 120W on their GPUs, and costs for cooling and power supply tend to increase very quickly.

It will more likely be on 7nm which should be around 80-100 GFLOPS/W, so probably a 8-12 TFLOPS GPU. It's a long lived node which is going to be used for a while like 28 nm, so it will be very cost-effective and able to scale to volume production. RAM possibly won't go above 16 - 24 GB, since it's unlikely there will be anything better than 16 Gb GDDR6 chips by then, and placing twelve of them as MS did on the XBX is already very expensive.

 

 



 

 

 

 

 

vivster said:
Trumpstyle said:

Sony and Microsoft aren't using bad GPUs, xbox one had a badly performing card. Ps4 was using cut-down radeon 7870, mid range gpu. Ps4 pro same, radeon 480 gpu. Those Gpus aren't bad, they are decent. Xbox one x gpu is probably superior than radeon 580 because of the bandwidth from the memory.

You also make a bit confusing comments in this thread :) First you say Sony and microsoft uses bad GPU than you say ps5 will have 14 TF which is unrealistic unless they w8 for 5 nm(Don't think they will w8 that long).

I said 12-15.

Why would you need to w8 wait for 5nm? Vega can already do easily over 10 and Navi will improve on that. The gen after Navi can make this happen. Dunno if it's able to do it on an APU but it pretty much has to. I don't really want to think about a sub 12TFLOPS PS5.

That's what I believe is realistic, but you can look at past gpu releases. For example Fury x was amds top GPU on 28 nm, that card is 8,6 TF. In 2016 with a new node jump(14 nm) midrange gpus can't match it. Ps4 pro GPU can't match it. Now Vega is Amds top gpu on 14 nm and it has about 13 TF.

 

Going from 14 nm to 7 nm expect about twice the gpu cores and a bit higher clock speed, the same jump we saw from ps4 to ps4 pro. And that is 2-2.5x performance increase. Unless AMD can do big architecture improvement (Performance/Watt) expect about 8-9 TF.



6x master league achiever in starcraft2

Beaten Sigrun on God of war mode

Beaten DOOM ultra-nightmare with NO endless ammo-rune, 2x super shotgun and no decoys on ps4 pro.

1-0 against Grubby in Wc3 frozen throne ladder!!