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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Take-Two “believers” in Nintendo, feeling “pretty enthusiastic” about NX

 

Are you I believer too?

Yes, I believe 79 68.10%
 
No, But I like Justin Bieber 37 31.90%
 
Total:116
Mike_L said:
RolStoppable said:

What it really means is "LOL we had already counted them out before we knew what their next machine is, but we obviously aren't going to say that because it would make us look incredibly biased."

 

RolStoppable said:

I don't consider the lack of such games a negative thing, quite the opposite actually.

[...]

I am in the majority, it's just that the majority doesn't post on forums.

 

Same old story with you, fella. After all these years, you still haven't decided 

Blaming 3rd parties for being biased and at the same time claiming that the majority of Nintendo console owners aren't into 3rd party games.

A lot of them, sadly, are. Look at EA. They released a total of four games on the Wii U, and had cancelled all further development before the fourth one had even come out. Why did they cancel? Because the Wii U didn't sell 20 million units in its first 3 months, and their titles weren't selling particularly well..

But when you look at the titles themselves, it starts to make more sense. Three titles were released within those first 3 months. You had Mass Effect 3, which had no pre-established fanbase on a Nintendo system and came without Mass Effect 1 and 2... and Mass Effect Trilogy was set to release on the other systems within a couple of months, containing all three games for the same price.

You had Madden 13, which lacked the major physics and graphical upgrades that the other versions got, and which was released for the other systems well before the Wii U even launched. And you had Fifa 13, which was basically the PS2 version with a gamepad feature instead of the "revolutionary" new version for PS3/360, and which also released for the other systems well before the Wii U even launched.

Their fourth game was Need For Speed. It released for other systems around the time that the Wii U launched... and yet, the Wii U version didn't release until 4 months later. It was supposedly quite a good game, and all props to Criterion Games for their effort, but EA had already abandoned the Wii U, and only released the game because it had reached the point where there was no point refusing to do so - it was released without fanfare, without any sort of effort to sell it. What's more, EA had already announced that they were not going to support the Wii U any further, prior to release.

Let's consider another example: Call of Duty. It was huge in the last gen, and yet every Wii version ended up being poorly-supported, lacking in major game modes, graphically weak (I'm not comparing to the 360/PS3 versions, but to what can be achieved on the Wii), when the games even made it at all... and then they didn't even mention the Wii version in their press releases, refused to provide any media for the Wii version in multiple cases, and refused to actually inform people of which modes would be present or absent in the game, even after release. I don't blame Treyarch, here - they did the best with what they had available. But they could only put a few people on the Wii version at any time, and had to fight for even that much.

Or how about Rayman Legends? Set for release on Wii U in the launch period, and then Ubisoft decides, against developer wishes, to force a delay so it could release simultaneously on other systems, thereby moving the release date from a time that would see it get the lion's share of public attention to a time that was crowded with other titles. The developers themselves protested publicly against the decision.

Routinely, developers would put out inferior products on Nintendo systems. If they sold well, it justified more inferior products (see Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles -> Darkside Chronicles) while putting their superior products (Resident Evil 5) on the other systems. If they sold poorly because of the low quality (see Dead Space), they pointed at it as proof that Nintendo gamers didn't want their games. When they had a big casual hit, such as Just Dance or Carnival Games, they started pumping more and more of them out with lower quality and less value, to pump as much out of it before it died, rather than trying to cultivate a long-term audience. And if a casual title didn't sell huge numbers, they simply cut and ran.

If a title was "mature", they argued that there was "no market", yet they made no attempt to build a market for their own games, expecting Nintendo to build it for them. But if it wasn't a "mature" title, their argument was that they couldn't really compete with Nintendo. In other words, Nintendo had to build a market without actually making games for the third parties to compete against, prove that the market existed, and then wait for years for the third party to actually make a game now that the evidence was present for the market.

And in the rare cases where the above didn't apply, third parties generally squandered their own market. See Red Steel, Epic Mickey, Sonic and the Secret Rings, Monster Hunter Tri (the best-selling home console Monster Hunter ever, and at the time, the third-best-selling Monster Hunter ever), etc.

There were a few cases that explicitly demonstrated the potential in the Wii market. Goldeneye 007 sold better on Wii than the PS3 and 360 versions combined (by more than 50%), No More Heroes set a record for a Suda51 title, purely due to the Wii, with PS3 version selling about a third as many units and the 360 version massively bombing. Sonic Unleashed sold far better on Wii, as did Lego Star Wars: The Complete Saga. Tiger Woods PGA Tour routinely sold far better on Wii than on other consoles, until EA decided to stop pushing the Wii version entirely... and then didn't even bother to make a PGA Tour for the Wii U despite it being a no-brainer, and PGA Tour 13 didn't get released for the Wii, either.

Resident Evil 4 sold comparably on Wii to how it did on Gamecube and PS2, despite being 2 years later (but they didn't bother making Resident Evil 5 for Wii). Call of Duty 3 sold nearly as well on Wii as on 360 and far better than on PS3 (but they didn't bother making Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare for Wii until two years later, meaning the Wii never actually got Modern Warfare 2 at all), Star Wars: The Force Unleashed sold about as well on Wii as on PS3 and 360, but the sequel prioritised PS3 and 360 and the Wii version did poorly as a result.

And oftentimes, when a Nintendo-console exclusive becomes non-exclusive, it does *worse* on the other systems. See ZombiU as another example (sold a million copies on Wii U, completely flopped on PS4 and XBO).

I could start to list off all of the games, franchises, and genres that publishers never even attempted on the Wii, despite it being the best-selling system at the time, but I think I've already made my point.

You can list off a lot of titles that third parties have released on Nintendo systems. But those lists never capture the actual quality, or the treatment given. These companies are mostly public companies - they can't just ignore a system without some form of "justification". So they release inferior titles, expecting investors to do exactly what many gamers do - list off titles without accounting for quality.

There is no doubt that there is bias against Nintendo. Nintendo doesn't bend itself to the will of the third party, the way that Sony and Microsoft usually do. This is reason enough for the third party to be biased against Nintendo (not that it's actually a valid reason, just that it's human nature).



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Third parties have no obligation to support Nintendo.

It's like having a person who's kinda a friend, but not exactly a close friend ... you have no obligation to drive them 45 minutes across to town just to hang out with them.

Most third party Western games are violent action games or sports sims. That just doesn't fit well with Nintendo's Disney-styled focus.

That audience is on Sony/MS, Take Two could release GTAVI on a Nintendo console ... it just wouldn't do much IMO, just like Call of Duty on Wii U.



Soundwave said:
Third parties have no obligation to support Nintendo.

It's like having a person who's kinda a friend, but not exactly a close friend ... you have no obligation to drive them 45 minutes across to town just to hang out with them.

Most third party Western games are violent action games or sports sims. That just doesn't fit well with Nintendo's Disney-styled focus.

That audience is on Sony/MS, Take Two could release GTAVI on a Nintendo console ... it just wouldn't do much IMO, just like Call of Duty on Wii U.

Learn a bit about business, markets, etc before commenting.



Mbolibombo said:
DanneSandin said:

Bully really came to the Wii? :P I most admit, I'm shocked!

Yes! I actually have it as well hah, bought it for 5 SEK on the internetz

Det var inte illa! 5 kronor bara? Was it any good?



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

RolStoppable said:
DanneSandin said:

Oh wow! From what I heard (didn't do much digging though, mind you) it was just a bump. I Was wrong. That's pretty... fantastic. But such a trend won't last long. Probably, I should add since I apparently don't know what I'm talking about here. Doubled in sales? Will be interesting to follow that turn of events.

Aaaw, that's not fair; I asked first ;) I think Nintendo will try something new, like they always does. The question is what. IF, and this is a pretty big if, they had a powerful console and good 3rd party backing they could outsell PS4, I'm sure of it. All the 3rd party games AND the 1st party line up... What could beat that?! The sad thing about Nintendo is that they're always digging their own grave. A quick look at N64, GC and Wii U tells you that. But I'm still doubtful they'll be able to bring back the casual market - even if they do try. That's a very fickle market. I'm not sure if I've answered your question, but neither did you ;)

GfK predicts higher sales for 3DS hardware and software in August, and they are the official tracker for European markets. They expect the Pokémon Go effect to last for a while and I do not disagree with them.

I asked the question because yours was unfair. If Wii-like sales are the bar for success, then it's hard to give a positive answer without casting much doubt on whether or not that can be achieved. The fair compromise is to alter the question to which kind of console would be more successful. My answer to that is clearly a system which emphasizes Nintendo's strengths as I just can't see a triplet having much appeal in the marketplace.

Like I said, it'll be interesting to follow the development in the aftermath of GO. Maybe it'll be a greater success for driving HW than I realize.

I think success is a difficult thing to measure. Having a successful console means it's profitable for the company, but also that it doesn't sell a whole lot less than the predecesor and how it fairs against the competition. Which makes the X1 and PS3 such interesting cases; I made two threads about these consoles a year or two ago, asking VGC if respective console were a success. Despite X1 selling more than the 360, people saw it as a failure (or close to it) while they saw the PS3 as a success, despite it selling less than PS2 and being a huge sink for Sony for many years. I don't think the NX has to sell Wii-like numbers to be successful, but that's partly because it doesn't follow the Wii directly - it comes after the huge failure of the Wii U. If it sells 50m copies it'll be deemed a success, but only because it will be compared to Wii U.

But how will the NX reach those numbers? To me it seems obvious that Nintendo should cater to both markets; the core and the casual gaming markets. Setting up maybe 3 Western studios that focus on Western styled games would create a market for the core gamers on the NX, thus helping 3rd parties to get a foot hold on the NX. The rest of Nintendo could (and should) focus on the kind of games they already make. Cheerful, colorful.

What's interesting to note is that it's 3DS numbers that rose after the launch of GO, and the NX being a home console might not benefit from this since we haven't seen a rising demand for Wii U (we haven't, right?). True, this could be due to a lot of reasons (such as form factor, name confusing or what have you), but this could also be taken as a confirmation that handheld consoles attract more casual gamers (such as those playing exclusively on mobile). Why not make the home console the place for more core titles, more "mature" games with a more 3rd party friendly enviroment, and let the handheld consoles be the stepping stone for casuals to get introduced to deeper game mechanics, then? This would be a 3 step program; attract people to Nintendo's IP's with the mobile market and using that, send them to the handheld console, easing them into a more gaming like enviroment and lastly sending them to Nintendo's "hardcore" console. That way Nintendo would cover all their bases. Or else, where will the people go after enjoying the handheld consoles? After they get accustomed with deeper game mechanics and want to move on to more core titles? If Nintendo doesn't offer that choice as well, they will loose a great portion of their market to Sony and MS that caters to that taste.



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

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Nintendo and Take-Two: An unprecedented partnership?



They must've also been snatched by the Pokemon Go HYPE!



Pocky Lover Boy! 

DanneSandin said:
Has Take-Two ever published a game on a Nintendo console?

Manhunt 2 came out on Wii.

Tennis for Two on Wii.

GTA: Chinatown Wars on DS.

None of them sold well, not even GTA on a massive install base.



Aielyn said:
Mike_L said:

 

 

Same old story with you, fella. After all these years, you still haven't decided 

Blaming 3rd parties for being biased and at the same time claiming that the majority of Nintendo console owners aren't into 3rd party games.

A lot of them, sadly, are. Look at EA. They released a total of four games on the Wii U, and had cancelled all further development before the fourth one had even come out. Why did they cancel? Because the Wii U didn't sell 20 million units in its first 3 months, and their titles weren't selling particularly well..

But when you look at the titles themselves, it starts to make more sense. Three titles were released within those first 3 months. You had Mass Effect 3, which had no pre-established fanbase on a Nintendo system and came without Mass Effect 1 and 2... and Mass Effect Trilogy was set to release on the other systems within a couple of months, containing all three games for the same price.

You had Madden 13, which lacked the major physics and graphical upgrades that the other versions got, and which was released for the other systems well before the Wii U even launched. And you had Fifa 13, which was basically the PS2 version with a gamepad feature instead of the "revolutionary" new version for PS3/360, and which also released for the other systems well before the Wii U even launched.

Their fourth game was Need For Speed. It released for other systems around the time that the Wii U launched... and yet, the Wii U version didn't release until 4 months later. It was supposedly quite a good game, and all props to Criterion Games for their effort, but EA had already abandoned the Wii U, and only released the game because it had reached the point where there was no point refusing to do so - it was released without fanfare, without any sort of effort to sell it. What's more, EA had already announced that they were not going to support the Wii U any further, prior to release.

Let's consider another example: Call of Duty. It was huge in the last gen, and yet every Wii version ended up being poorly-supported, lacking in major game modes, graphically weak (I'm not comparing to the 360/PS3 versions, but to what can be achieved on the Wii), when the games even made it at all... and then they didn't even mention the Wii version in their press releases, refused to provide any media for the Wii version in multiple cases, and refused to actually inform people of which modes would be present or absent in the game, even after release. I don't blame Treyarch, here - they did the best with what they had available. But they could only put a few people on the Wii version at any time, and had to fight for even that much.

Or how about Rayman Legends? Set for release on Wii U in the launch period, and then Ubisoft decides, against developer wishes, to force a delay so it could release simultaneously on other systems, thereby moving the release date from a time that would see it get the lion's share of public attention to a time that was crowded with other titles. The developers themselves protested publicly against the decision.

Routinely, developers would put out inferior products on Nintendo systems. If they sold well, it justified more inferior products (see Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles -> Darkside Chronicles) while putting their superior products (Resident Evil 5) on the other systems. If they sold poorly because of the low quality (see Dead Space), they pointed at it as proof that Nintendo gamers didn't want their games. When they had a big casual hit, such as Just Dance or Carnival Games, they started pumping more and more of them out with lower quality and less value, to pump as much out of it before it died, rather than trying to cultivate a long-term audience. And if a casual title didn't sell huge numbers, they simply cut and ran.

If a title was "mature", they argued that there was "no market", yet they made no attempt to build a market for their own games, expecting Nintendo to build it for them. But if it wasn't a "mature" title, their argument was that they couldn't really compete with Nintendo. In other words, Nintendo had to build a market without actually making games for the third parties to compete against, prove that the market existed, and then wait for years for the third party to actually make a game now that the evidence was present for the market.

And in the rare cases where the above didn't apply, third parties generally squandered their own market. See Red Steel, Epic Mickey, Sonic and the Secret Rings, Monster Hunter Tri (the best-selling home console Monster Hunter ever, and at the time, the third-best-selling Monster Hunter ever), etc.

There were a few cases that explicitly demonstrated the potential in the Wii market. Goldeneye 007 sold better on Wii than the PS3 and 360 versions combined (by more than 50%), No More Heroes set a record for a Suda51 title, purely due to the Wii, with PS3 version selling about a third as many units and the 360 version massively bombing. Sonic Unleashed sold far better on Wii, as did Lego Star Wars: The Complete Saga. Tiger Woods PGA Tour routinely sold far better on Wii than on other consoles, until EA decided to stop pushing the Wii version entirely... and then didn't even bother to make a PGA Tour for the Wii U despite it being a no-brainer, and PGA Tour 13 didn't get released for the Wii, either.

Resident Evil 4 sold comparably on Wii to how it did on Gamecube and PS2, despite being 2 years later (but they didn't bother making Resident Evil 5 for Wii). Call of Duty 3 sold nearly as well on Wii as on 360 and far better than on PS3 (but they didn't bother making Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare for Wii until two years later, meaning the Wii never actually got Modern Warfare 2 at all), Star Wars: The Force Unleashed sold about as well on Wii as on PS3 and 360, but the sequel prioritised PS3 and 360 and the Wii version did poorly as a result.

And oftentimes, when a Nintendo-console exclusive becomes non-exclusive, it does *worse* on the other systems. See ZombiU as another example (sold a million copies on Wii U, completely flopped on PS4 and XBO).

I could start to list off all of the games, franchises, and genres that publishers never even attempted on the Wii, despite it being the best-selling system at the time, but I think I've already made my point.

You can list off a lot of titles that third parties have released on Nintendo systems. But those lists never capture the actual quality, or the treatment given. These companies are mostly public companies - they can't just ignore a system without some form of "justification". So they release inferior titles, expecting investors to do exactly what many gamers do - list off titles without accounting for quality.

There is no doubt that there is bias against Nintendo. Nintendo doesn't bend itself to the will of the third party, the way that Sony and Microsoft usually do. This is reason enough for the third party to be biased against Nintendo (not that it's actually a valid reason, just that it's human nature).

What about the time when they did make efforts? Rockstar developed GTA: Chinatown Wars as a DS game and it was very well recieved but sold very poorly on a huge install base.

Ubisoft published Assassin's Creed 3 on Wii U which released a few weeks after the other versions, but sold very poorly. Activision released COD BO2 on Wii U which was a good version of the game but it didn't sell well. Games like Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell Blacklist which were well recieved sold poorly on Wii U.

The third party games that sold well on Wii U relative to other versions are Just Dance and Skylanders, and that's what it gets now. Its Nintendo's demographics that are the reason third party games don't sell well on Nintendo platforms as they are violent and mature or realistic, and that's not what people buy on Nintendo consoles.



RolStoppable said:

The Wii U cannot benefit directly from Pokémon Go because it has no mainline Pokémon games on it. It has Pokémon Tekken, but that's not the logical choice for someone who played Pokémon Go. What is going on is that the decision is made to buy a mainline Pokémon title after experiencing Go. This requires a 3DS to play the game.

Pokémon Go players don't opt for a handheld as their Nintendo machine because they are casual or confused, they do it because they aren't idiots. Don't make the analysis of a rising trend complicated when it's as simple as in this case.

A side effect of the increasing 3DS hardware sales is that non-Pokémon games have also started to sell better on the 3DS. This includes first and foremost various Mario and Zelda titles, because those are typical go-to IPs when people purchase Nintendo hardware. The Wii U will only be able to benefit much later, because people are going to explore the 3DS library before they consider buying more hardware. Since the 3DS is over five years old, there's already a big back catalogue. It would take months to go through, even if someone exclusively played Pokémon, Mario and Zelda titles. So really, there's not much of a reason to believe that the Wii U will see noteworthy benefits in the near future, and with the NX reveal on the horizon, a lot of people who consider a home console purchase are going to skip the Wii U in favor of NX. Nintendo's two announced smartphone games for fall are Animal Crossing and Fire Emblem, both of which are IPs where the Wii U cannot be expected to receive a boost in hardware and software sales.

What the NX home console needs to benefit from the synergy between smartphone games and dedicated gaming hardware is appropriate games. That shouldn't be a problem with Nintendo's strongly implied plan to make as many games as possible available for both the home console and the handheld. However, if Nintendo went ahead with a powerful home console for $400+ to compete with the likes of Neo and Scorpio, the positive effects of smartphone games on their core business would be greatly lopsided in favor of the handheld. Same Nintendo games, but significantly more affordable price for the hardware.

Lastly, this idea that Nintendo has to cover everything is really an impossible task and would only lead to a product that has to make concessions and compromises for all possible demographics, and in the end wouldn't serve anyone really well. Sony and Microsoft don't cover all bases either, and nobody ever managed to do it. There's no period in time where PC gaming was extinct.

I still don't see how my idea of have a 3 stepp program couldn't work, and wouldn't work better than what you propose. Nintendo don't have to cover all the bases by themselves, 3rd parties would cover up most of the core market for them. Nintendo could set of a daughter company to handle all the Western type of games, maybe releasing one or two games each year - or they could expand Retro Studios and let them handle it. There are a lot of gamers out there that would love to play Nintendo games, they're just not willing to scope up a second console, which the NX would be if it doesn't try to appease 3rd party support and getting quality ports and games. Nintendo will remain the second choice for a lot of gamers since it doesn't have 3rd party support, but what if it was the first choice instead?

Imagine a portable NX (NXP) with a price point of $200 and a stationary NX (NXS)for $350 which shares a lot of the same games but with a few exclusives. The NXP would be the entry console for new gamers that played Nintendo games on mobile, while the NXS would have much the same games but also a few exklusives for those gamers that would want a little bit more... depth from their gaming experience. While casual gamers would first and foremost turn to the NXP, more experienced gamers, "core" gamers, would pick up the NXS.

What would your scenario for the NX look like then?



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.