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Forums - Politics Discussion - Reasons why voting Libertarian (or another third party) is not "wasting" your vote.

You say the US qualifies with this restriction?

"the country's government has foreign asset reserves exceeding the amount necessary to repay all its debt obligations."



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Voting 3rd party is a waste because the Electoral College system isn't really designed to work for more than 2 candidates. During the '92 election for example, Ross Perot ran as an independent and got roughly 19% of the popular vote, but didn't win a single state so his electoral vote total was 0. Bill Clinton won the election with only 43% of the popular vote total, but it was a landslide for him with the Electoral votes.

Unless the winner-take-all system that's currently in place was replaced with a proportionate delegate / vote total for each state, a 3rd party candidate stands no chance in a general election unless a candidate from one of the two main parties completely shits the bed and takes his political party down with him.



On 2/24/13, MB1025 said:
You know I was always wondering why no one ever used the dollar sign for $ony, but then I realized they have no money so it would be pointless.

Final-Fan said:
sc94597 said:

1&2 Gary Johnson is polling at 11% currently. He probably won't get that much of the vote, but even if he gets something like 5% it is a huge change from the 1% that the Libertarian party usually gets. And that 5% can win or lose a candidate if he or she got those votes. Why wouldn't the loser adjust his/her views to appeal to these people next go around?

3. Yes you can have it both ways. Both parties are losing membership not to each-other, but rather to the population of non-voters/independents/third parties. Trump is kiling the GOP's future, but if he wins he kills the Democratic party's present power. That doesn't mean the Democratic party can't come to prominence if it changes drastically, but it also doesn't mean that the Democratic party is in any good position. A Trump win, also doesn't mean the GOP is in any good position either. It is still losing voters regardless.

4. You mean the Libertarian party? Like I said, Gary Johnson is polling at 11%.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/mar/24/libertarian-gary-johnson-double-digits-race-agains/

And since the polls it seems as if more people are looking toward Libertarians because many Cruz voters don't want to vote for Trump.

5. Sorry, the last five presidents have done the same thing. Increased the national debt, restricted rights, started wars. Was there much of a difference between Obama and Bush in policy? Not really. In rhetoric? A world. Hillary is going to be more of the same, and Trump isn't conservative enough to pick a good supreme court nominee anyway. This is the same guy who in 2000 supported the assault weapons ban and was as pro-choice as you can get. Every day of the week he flip flops. Literally this was the case with the minimum wage and transgendered rights last week. Obviously there is something greater that makes presidents act in the same way regardless of their ideology.

6. I am all for local activism, but the problem is that the way the GOP and Democratic parties are structured is very top-down. This has gotten a bit better on the GOP side of things with the tea party movement, but it still is mostly true. For that reason change needs to happen at all levels at the same time. There are still local and state successes of course, the free state project for example chose the easiest legislature and local parties to infiltrate (New Hampshire) and they are succeding slowly but surely, but they'd be squashed if people weren't protecting them from the national commitee's on the federal level.

3.  I really don't think it's plausible that BOTH major parties would implode at the same time in the way you're suggesting.  More likely one would go, leaving the other temporarily strengthened by filling some of the power vacuum and one or more third parties growing to real national importance (or a new one springing up) to fill the rest.  Possibly after that shook out the other one might also collapse but I don't see them both collapsing within a decade of each other. 

4.  How does that 11% number compare with similar polls done in the past?  In other words, is this really such a remarkable number of people claiming support for Libertarians or is it "the Ron Paul effect" (vocal minority disproportionately represented by polling method or otherwise evaporating by election day)?  This is an honest question because I don't know. 

5.  I do agree that there are such forces at work influencing the President's policymaking but saying they tend to lean that way once in office doesn't mean they all end up at the same place.  In other words, where they started affects where they end up.  I disagree that Obama and Bush acted in exactly or substantially the same way, while I agree that it was too close to being so. 

6.  I think that local RCV methods being implemented (which they have been in various places) produces public acceptance, and obviously proves its practicality, leading to increased ability to pressure for it at higher levels.  I would love to implement it nationally without having to do a patient bottom-up campaign but I don't see it as a practical possibility.  I would love to see myself proven wrong. 

3. I didn't say they both will implode at the same time. I was saying that both of them have a chance of imploding, as neither party is healthy. 

4. In the last election polls were something like 3%. http://www.gallup.com/poll/155537/little-support-third-party-candidates-2012-election.aspx

The 11% result is quite big. It is mostly because Clinton and Trump are so undesirable. 

5. Maybe not exactly, as they didn't exist in the same period with the same problems, but Obama didn't change anything about the U.S foreign policy, and that was something he -as president - as a ton of power over. Obama was an esablishment candidate in revolutionary clothing. 

6. No disagreement here. I can't see the national parties letting this happen though unless they are to weak/limited to do anything about it. 



Final-Fan said:
You say the US qualifies with this restriction?

"the country's government has foreign asset reserves exceeding the amount necessary to repay all its debt obligations."

This isn't true for China either. China's government debt is something like 70% of its GDP,  or about $7 trillion dollars. The total foreign asset reserves China has is something around 3.2 - 4 trillion dollars. 

But as is usual with these types of laws the numbers can be skewed to fit the requirements, so that they can enforce it based on intent. Nevertheless, the U.S still manipulates its currency as does any country with a central bank. 






sc94597 said:
ViciousVi said:

The reason you think that those salaries of 70k for manufacturers were unreasonable but today a salary of 240k for a phsycician seems fine is entirely a product of protectionism being allowed to fly by in those trade deals. It's just that the only class being protected are those who already made more money. 

This is not the sole reason why physicians make as much as they do. A physician makes more money because: The supply of doctors with respect to their demand is much lower than that of manufacturers. Why?

Because of Trade Deals which opened the floodgates in terms of supply of manufacturing workers but not doctors.

Mostly because becoming a doctor takes at least 8 years of education, and often doctors end up with 100k -200k in student loan debt. Additionally doctors have to pay malpractice fees, and it just isn't easy to become a doctor overall. We know the supply is low because many doctors work 24-48 hours shifts.

The supply of doctors is certainly lower than it should be, this leads to a tigher labor market, and thus more quickly growing wages. Add that to the problem of the cost of higher education rising and that does explain a lot of their wage. 

In order to become a doctor, you need to be intelligent and dedicated to studying, which most people aren't in that way. You also need to do well on tests and maintain an almost perfect GPA in high school, undergraduate, and medical school. Manufacturering jobs on the otherhand can be done by many different types of people, and the cost of entry is low (low enough that employer's train people rather than making them pay for school.) There are fewer regulations on the manufacturers as well, and just fewer natural limitations overall. 

This does not mean that manufacturers don't work as hard, if not harder, than a doctor. Wages are not determined by how hard you work though. I can dig 100 ditches in a day and fill them up. That doesn't mean I should be paid for it. They are determined by the value your work provides others (which is assessed subjectively by them.) While I do agree that some protectionist laws have made it harder for foreign doctors to come to the U.S and compete, I doubt the substantial portion of the $200,000 a physician makes is due to the relatively miniscule supply constraint caused by this.

You call it a minimal supply restraint but then go on to cite those same restraints:

A lot more has to do with the U.S government and private medical licensing authorities requiring much more skill and qualifications from their doctors than those abroad. This is mostly out of fear of law suits, but also because Americans demand it, due to safety. The equivalent scenario in the car industry would be to say that American cars are better than foreign cars, but that is something in dispute. 

 

Let's be clear, Average American Joes do not lobby congress and the president to maintain protections for doctors and lawyers, their representative industry groups do this. The two positives to be had in such a policy is more highly trained doctors and higher wages for those doctors, the negatives are fewer doctors overall, less treatment overall (because those high wages mean high costs for consumers of healthcare), and a growing of the gap between the doctors and lawayers and everyone else.


As for Bernie not supporting tarriffs, I can see how he doesn't support the large free trade bills that do much more than open markets, but specific bills like the following I really don't understand why he'd oppose.  Also I will admit it was Hillary who supports the exit taxes, and Bernie didn't say he supported them specifically, but I can definitely see him getting behind it from what he said about tax inversion. 

http://www.ontheissues.org/International/Bernie_Sanders_Free_Trade.htm

Voted NO on implementing US-Singapore free trade agreement.

Vote to pass a bill that would put into effect a trade agreement between the United States and Singapore. The trade agreement would reduce tariffs and trade barriers between the United States and Singapore. The agreement would remove tariffs on goods and duties on textiles, and open markets for services The agreement would also establish intellectual property, environmental and labor standards.

 

Voted NO on implementing free trade agreement with Chile.

United States-Chile Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act: Vote to pass a bill that would put into effect a trade agreement between the US and Chile. The agreement would reduce tariffs and trade barriers between the US and Chile. The trade pact would decrease duties and tariffs on agricultural and textile products. It would also open markets for services. The trade pact would establish intellectual property safeguards and would call for enforcement of environmental and labor standards.

 

and he signed a bill to impose tariffs on countries who manipulate currency, which is practically every country (yes, including the U.S.) 

Impose tariffs against countries which manipulate currency.

Sanders signed Currency Reform for Fair Trade Act

 

  • Amends the Tariff Act of 1930 to include as a "countervailable subsidy" requiring action under a countervailing duty or antidumping duty proceeding the benefit conferred on merchandise imported into the US from foreign countries with fundamentally undervalued currency.
  • Defines "benefit conferred" as the difference between:
    1. the amount of currency provided by a foreign country in which the subject merchandise is produced; and
    2. the amount of currency such country would have provided if the real effective exchange rate of its currency were not fundamentally undervalued.
  • Determines that the currency of a foreign country is fundamentally undervalued if for an 18-month period:
    1. the government of the country engages in protracted, large-scale intervention in one or more foreign exchange markets
    2. the country's real effective exchange rate is undervalued by at least 5%
    3. the country has experienced significant and persistent global current account surpluses; and

the country's government has foreign asset reserves exceeding the amount necessary to repay all its debt obligations.


Q: So what does Bernie propose we do?

A: Instead of passing such trade deals again and again, Bernie argues we must "develop trade policies which demand that American corporations create jobs here, and not abroad."

 

 

Also I find quotes like this quite non-progressive. Bernie is very progressive when it comes to the United States, but he doesn't want people in China to come out of poverty if it means the American domestic largesse can't grow further. That is probably one of greatest things about free trade. It allows people all over the world to become as wealthy as people in the U.S. The other great thing about free-trade is that it creates international peace because the countries have entangled interests. If I attack you, I lose a lot. Sorry, the quotes above are indeed protectionist. I don't see how you can distort that to he supports "free-trade" more than other people in politics on the right. 

The United States does not engage in Currency Manipulation. Currency Manipulation does not apply to any policy action that happens to affect exchange rates. Also, seeing as CM is considered a beggar-thy-neighbor policy it is completely within the realm of normalcy to use tariffs as a countermeasure against it. See http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/090915/quantitative-easing-vs-currency-manipulation.asp for more on CM. "In theory, currency manipulation and a monetary policy like quantitative easing aren't the same thing; in practice, it's a lot more difficult to distinguish one from the other. While this doesn’t necessarily mean we should disregard currency manipulation as a meaningful concept, it does highlight some of the more biased views that are only recognized when someother country is doing the manipulating"  Generally speaking it's not CM unless it's deliberately and directly manipulating one's exchange rate. The US has never taken a deliberate stance of CM (but neither has China for that matter) but one could make the argument that certain actions had a known indirect impact and thus qualify as CM. I'd disagree on the grounds that if they were really seeking to use QE in such a way then they would have failed spectacularly (the dollar hit a 40 year high not too long ago and is generally stronger now after QE).

 

Saying Sanders doesn't want people in China to come out of poverty is also patently absurd, especially after I just pointed out that he plans to use trade policy to promote the income and well-being of people in foreign nations (such as demanding a rise in their MW). He also promoted using trade restrictions to promote democracy in Burma as well as a requirement that all trade agreements be subject to biannual review with respect to their economic, environmental, nation security, health, safety, and other effects and to require Trade Promotion Authority be premised on a requirement that trade bills meet a set of standards for labor, the environment, human rights, intellectual property, and taxation. He is opposed to givign China MFN based on its human rights violations and has spent his career fighting for the idea that trade deals should be primarily premised on the promotion of human rights abroad. So I really don't see how you can expect us to swallow the whole "Sanders doesn't care about other countries" tale.

 

In terms of Chile and Singapore, its difficult to pull up any direct statements from Sanders on them (they are smaller and less well known so I assume that is why).  However if you really believe that lowering trade restrictions it he only way to increased utility then you must oppose the law. As you noted the Singapore law increased Intellectual Property Rights, in fact it made Singapore the country with the strongest Intellectual property protections in the region. This is protectionism and it attracted investment from multinational firms mostly technology, film, and pharmacueticals.  But, then again should any bill or any suggestion of protecting any sector mean a bill is really a protectionist bill? I think the Singapore agreement is largely unobjectionable and will not defend Sanders on that one. But it is a good example of how market protections are sometimes a good thing. I don't think talking about tariffs as a reaction to bad acting can credibly be used to support the idea that he is a protectionist at heart.

In terms of being more supportive of free trade than the right, well Sanders himself has never voted for a single "free trade" deal while in office, but has always maintained that he would vote for one with adequate protections and standards and that he supports free trade in concept. But my earlier comment was more about the left or liberal America in general http://www.people-press.org/2015/05/27/free-trade-agreements-seen-as-good-for-u-s-but-concerns-persist/ 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/181886/majority-opportunity-foreign-trade.aspx?utm_source=Economy&utm_medium=newsfeed&utm_campaign=tiles

Edit: Also on the main subject of this thread, which I have yet to comment on, I support the idea wholeheartedly. As I mentioned in another thread I intend to vote for Sanders regardless of the party nominee and encourage everyone to vote for their preferred candidate, not the lesser of two evils. I especially agree with point 5.



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Of course it's not a wasted vote, but it is indeed a completely useless ideology but I guess that's for another thread :).



ViciousVi said:

 

Notice the last part of the quote, " in practice, it's a lot more difficult to distinguish one from the other.  While this doesn’t necessarily mean we should disregard currency manipulation as a meaningful concept, it does highlight some of the more biased views that are only recognized when some other country is doing the manipulating" 

I think that describes it pretty well. Who is to say China is even consciously undervaluing its currency, while the U.S is not distorting its for other reasons (maintaining its status as the world reserve currency is beneficial to U.S's oil escapades)? Certainly it can be a side-effect of their monetary policy. And honestly, you mention it as a "beggar-thy-neighbor" policy as if the U.S has never done anything that comes close to "beggar-thy-neighbor." (see: post Great-Depression.) Although I guess it doesn't have to today, because it outright invades countries and ignites coups to enhance its interests. If every country installed tariffs because  they perceived the other as playing unfairly, we'd be living in a new age of mercantilism (and consequently warfarism.)  

It is also important to realize there is a comparitive advantage to having China (or any other non-capital intensive country) do manufacturing and the U.S transition to a service-based economy producing health-care, science, higher education, and technology. Is Sanders not ackowledging this? The companies would go to China regardless of its currency status because the cost of labor in the U.S (or most first-world countries) is quite astronomical for world standards, mostly because collective bargaining for wages and benefitis happened in a time before easily globalized trade, and were not consequently suited to the global market.  

I never said Sanders doesn't want people in China to come out of poverty. He doesn't want it if it means he can't tax big corporations to pay for American welfare or if it means American wages stagnate at a level much higher than China's for a while until China catches up. I understand why he makes this argument, he is a politician in the United States and not China afterall. But if China and the U.S were in the same political entity which he was running for political office he'd be demanding redistribution from the U.S to China. This counteracts his entire ideology. Furthermore, the assumption (or short-sightedness) that wages in China won't increase is false, as they already have over the last 20 years. Eventually they will stabilize with first world standards, once China can solve its urban vs. rural division, and manufacturing jobs will move to the next capital deficient nation (possibly somewhere in Africa or South America.) But notice how he doesn't just want to punish China and Burma (relatively undemocratic places) but also Chile and Singapore - both liberal polities(at least today.)  Overall, limiting trade through tariffs because some people are violating the rights of others, is the equivalent of placing sanctions on North Korea for the same reason. The establishment in these countries aren't harmed, but the common person is. Additionally, what is the best way of bringing democracy and liberalism to illiberal places? By trading with them. The more we interact with them the more they'll change for the better. We can already see this in China 2016 vs. China 1970. Overall it is silly to punish regular people who are just trying to survive because their governments violate their rights, and tariffs - whether intentional or not - do just that. Not to mention the negative effects on consumer goods at home, which is something that always must be considered in the debate about economic welfare. 

Also, I didn't say lowering trade restrictions is the only way to increase utility, but it is the fairest way. Giving special priveleges to any single group is not acceptable. Picking winners and losers in the world is not acceptable. There is a good utility argument that it creates distortions in how people interact with one another that in the long-term can affect total utility, but that is not why we should oppose protectionism. We should oppose it because it unfairly favors one special interest group over another.  As for the intellectual property issue with regards to Singapore - it seems as if it is just being brought up the standards of the U.S and Europe. I personally am not a fan of the current intellectual property rules in the U.S (and Europe), but it seems like a small negative to a bill that will overall open up markets and trade. Sanders seems to apply a zero-tolerance policy to free-trade, when he doesn't do this with other things that might have negatives (such as his extravagant welfare programs.) It is a very rigid and uncompromising way to go about it. That is why he seems quite the protectionist. 

Hillary has become a bit harsh on free-trade recently, compared to her past. Albeit, she is nowhere nearly as bad as Trump (and in my eyes Bernie.) 



The problem with "leading yourself" and the "don't tread on me" attitude hardly makes sense in a country of 400 million VERY DIFFERENT people.



Skratchy said:
The problem with "leading yourself" and the "don't tread on me" attitude hardly makes sense in a country of 400 million VERY DIFFERENT people.

I would say the opposite. It makes the most sense because it is quite ridiculous to think a central authority consisting of a few thousand people knows what's best for these as you said, "400 million VERY DIFFERENT people." Who knows what these people want and need more than they do? Certainly not some group of bureaucrats in D.C. 



sc94597 said:
ViciousVi said:

 

Notice the last part of the quote, " in practice, it's a lot more difficult to distinguish one from the other.  While this doesn’t necessarily mean we should disregard currency manipulation as a meaningful concept, it does highlight some of the more biased views that are only recognized when some other country is doing the manipulating" 

I think that describes it pretty well. Whose to say China is even consciously undervaluing its currency, while the U.S is not distorting its for other reasons (maintaining its status as the world reserve currency is beneficial to U.S's oil escapades)? Certainly it can be a side-effect of their monetary policy. And honestly, you mention it as a "beggar-thy-neighbor" policy as if the U.S has never done anything that comes close to "beggar-thy-neighbor." (see: post Great-Depression.) Although I guess it doesn't have to today, because it outright invades countries and ignites coups to enhance its interests. If every country installed tariffs because  they perceived the other as playing unfairly, we'd be living in a new age of mercantilism (and consequently warfarism.)  

This last line is flatly incorrect, we currently have many tariffs which function in precisely this manner as do other countries. We haven't descended into a new age of mercantilism just because we are prepared to counter bad acting with protectionist policy. What we are talking about here is not a new practice, we are talking about expanding an accepted practice towards CM specifically. Also, China has not explictly stated it is engaging in deliberate CM, however western academics have plenty of reason to believe they are, not the least of which is the known popularity of literature promoting the concept of CM as necessary amongst the upper members of the CPC.

As for the US engaging in unfair trade practices in the form of QE altering the exchange rate: you'd have to prove this was done deliberately for the economic benefits to our exporters. Since the objectives of the FRS are low inflation and low unemployment then this would imply they sought this policy to increase job growth, but then you'd have to contend with the fact that promoting exporters is laregly the promotion of manufacturing and the fact that US manufacturing is increasingly automated, means that as a policy tool it would be much weaker here than in a country with labor intensive manufacturing, like say China. In fact it would pretty much be useless here because all the growth in manufacturing production has occurred with almost no increase in manufacturing employment. You could make the case that such policies were sought to benefit the growth in GDP but not in jobs, and therefore, since the fed does not target GDP, it seems an unlikely case that monetary policy in the US is really currency manipulation.

In terms of post-depression BtN policies I have to admit I am not sure what you are referencing, the time period is generally associated with trade liberalization such as the creation of General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) and the Reciprocal Trade Agreement Act (RTAA)


It is also important to realize there is a comparitive advantage to having China (or any other non-capital intensive country) do manufacturing and the U.S transition to a service-based economy producing health-care, science, higher education, and technology. Is Sanders not ackowledging this?

That's because that's not a fact we can all agree on. In fact I would contend there is no comparative advantage in letting China do most of the manufacturing, there are many economists who agree with this sentiment. 


Furthermore, the assumption (or short-sightedness) that wages in China won't increase is false, as they already have over the last 20 years. Eventually they will stabilize with first world standards, once China can solve its urban vs. rural division, and jobs will move to the next capital deficient nation (possibly somewhere in Africa or South America.) But notice how he doesn't just want to punish China and Burma (relatively undemocratic places) but also Chile and Singapore - both liberal polities(at least today.)  Overall, limiting trade through tariffs because some people are violating the rights of others, is the equivalent of placing sanctions on North Korea for the same reason. The establishment in these countries aren't harmed, but the common person is. Additionally, what is the best way of bringing democracy and liberalism to illiberal places? By trading with them. The more we interact with them the more they'll change for the better. We can already see this in China 2016 vs. China 1970. Overall it is silly to punish regular people who are just trying to survive because their governments violate their rights, and tariffs - whether intentionally or not - do just that. Not to mention the negative effects on consumer goods at home, which is something that always must be considered in the debate about economic welfare. 

 

None of the economists who object to the trade deals as they've been written assumes wages in China won't rise, nor do the politicians who oppose them make this assumption as far as I am aware, even when that opposition is couched in opposition to China's human rights violations. In terms of Chile it should be noted it is a country which has a spurious relationship with democracy. Having been ruled by a dictator in the early 70s that gave way to a military coup and regime that lasted until 1990 and committed numerous human rights violations. The constitution was not made fully democratic until 2005, after the trade agreement went into effect. I can understand Sander's position, it was one of caution mosty likely, fearing the fact that the military still was autocratic and it's top commander outranked it's democratic politicians in terms of power (and could not be removed by one) at the time. It should be noted that Chile has been recently mired in political crisis over the exposure that politicians in both is biggest parties were engaged in a large degree corruption. It is also debatable whether Singapore can really be called a liberal democracy. Some have used the term illiberal democracy, Freedom House ranks it as undemocratic and only "partly free". In terms of press freedom Singapore has been ranked near the bottom of the list. Also in terms of North Korea, we do that. We do employ sanctions against them because of their human rights violations. This is not objectionable in and of itself and it does not lead to a deterioration of international markets. 

Also, I didn't say lowering trade restrictions is the only way to increase utility, but it is the fairest way. Giving special priveleges to any single group is not acceptable. Picking winners and losers in the world is not acceptable. There is a good utility argument that it creates distortions in how people interact with one another that in the long-term can affect total utility, but that is not why we should oppose protectionism. We should oppose it because it unfairly favors one special interest group over another.  As for the intellectual property issue with regards to Singapore - it seems as if it is just being brought up the standards of the U.S and Europe. I personally am not a fan of the current intellectual property rules in the U.S (and Europe), but it seems like a small negative to a bill that will overall open up markets and trade. Sanders seems to apply a zero-tolerance policy to free-trade, when he doesn't do this with other things that might have negatives (such as his extravagant welfare programs.) It is a very rigid and uncompromising way to go about it. That is why he seems quite the protectionist. 

The part about picking winners and losers...well nearly all economic policy involves choosing winners and losers. It's just the truth about economic decisions, especially trade, you have to make hard choices sometimes. The architects of NAFTA originally panned it as a way to increase job growth in the US. When it caused hundreds of thousands of job losses they pointed to the wage growth associated with the policy instead. Arguing that the growth in wages for the highest income earners offset the wages lost from lost jobs. This was solely the result of lowering trade barriers (though selectively, keeping certain ones in place). There are winners and losers here and they were chosen by policy, but it was a free-trade policy. The reality is you have to make decisions about who wins and who loses with all of these policies, you're only deluding yourself if you think you can figure out a way to make everyone better off everytime (sometimes you can, when things line up correctly, but thats rare). The idea that we should be against any protections because they favor one group over another is not  really defensible and also i,t funnily enough, puts you on Sander's side in terms of his vote history. If you really believe in that line and held to it rigidly then you'd have to oppose every trade deal he did, because they explictly made decisions about winners and losers, favoring some groups over others. 

 

Trade with illiberal regime may indeed be the best way to spread capitalism and it most definitely has benefited many peoples lives. However I would stop short of saying that any trade agreement with a illiberal regime is beneficial towards the promotion of democratic market society. It is easy to conceive how a struggling regime may actually use certain trade agreements to prolong their power. Not to mention that trade directly empowers these regimes by handing them much more money in taxes through their economies. In terms of China I think the jury is still out, and to be clear I'm an optimist and hope that our trade with them really has deteriorated the CPCs power. But if we take an analysis of where China is today and in 1970 almost all the progress is economic, not political. They are still ruled by an autocratic one party communist regime, they still forcibly abort children, they still spy on their citizens to a degree which would make the NSA blush, they still censor all their media heavily, hell they've scrubbed Tiananmen square from the national consciousness, many experts at this point view the Chinese democracy movement to have been in decline for several decades now (peaking in the 90s). There are other examples which can be used to support the idea though and it may be that trade even with illiberal regimes is a good thing sometimes, but I think there is a good case to be made that certain trade deals would be much better if crafted slightly differently. Sanders is admittedly a bit more rigid, finding that all of the proposed deals negatives outweigh the positives, however I firmly believe he and I are in the same essential camp. That trade can be good and it can be bad, we've done it badly for decades and we can do much better in the future. That doesn't mean closing our doors to everyone though.