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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Skyward Sword HD with standard controls: What would have to be changed?

Ultrashroomz said:
Skyward Sword without motion controls would be pointless, since that game revolved heavily around them.

The game looks fine as is IMO, so an HD port would be somewhat unnecessary.

You won't feel the same way in 2021 or 2022. That's when I think a resmaster of SS will happen. WW was remade 11 years after and now TP 10 years after.



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SJReiter said:
Ultrashroomz said:
Skyward Sword without motion controls would be pointless, since that game revolved heavily around them.

The game looks fine as is IMO, so an HD port would be somewhat unnecessary.

You won't feel the same way in 2021 or 2022. That's when I think a resmaster of SS will happen. WW was remade 11 years after and now TP 10 years after.

I dont think we will wait for so long, we could have SS HD in 2017/2018 easy.



Hiku said:

Well I actually wasn't thinking about this from the viewpoint of the Gamepad as the controller. (I doubt WiiU is getting any more high profile games anyway.) That's why I refered to the button as L2 and not ZL. Just look at this from the viewpoint of a controller without motion controlls, and don't limit your thinking based on number of buttons available. Such as a yet to be defined NX controller, and add as many buttons as you'd like.

Not sure about those moves you mentioned though as I haven't played the game. But I'm still curious about the question I asked you about how the poke works.


I'm not talking about the Gamepad and I'm not considering motion controls at all. That's the whole point. ZL is the standard name for the trigger button on Nintendo platforms, not L2. L2 is a Playstation button. It doesn't appear on any other platform. I think it is erring on fantasy to assume that the NX will be adding even more buttons to an already complex button set up.

You don't have to be locked on, but you can't chose where to poke. You just poke directly in front of you, so it's Link's position that matters. You have to be perfectly in front of what you're poking in order for the hit to register. If not, the move will be deflected.



Hiku said:

Well the Z button used to be just a button on Gamecube in front of the L & R triggers. And there was just one. Then it became a trigger and was moved behind the other shoulder button/s on Wii on WiiU. But it is associated with Nintendo controllers as you say, which is why I said L2 instead. I used what I feel might be a more general, and easier to understand term (if you add more L buttons, there's a coherent pattern. 2 > 3 > 4, etc. If you add another L button on the Gamepad, they would go... backwards in the alphabet I guess?), that also does not associate this to a Nintendo controller specifically, but indicates that it can be any controller, since L2 is obviously referencing the Dualshock.
And I know you're not talking about motion controls. I just repeated that fact in order to be very specific about what kind of controller you should have in mind, as you are limiting your thinking here in ways that you shouldn't. I mentioned the NX controller not specifically because it's a Nintendo controller, but because it has yet to be defined. In other words, it doesn't matter if the game comes out on a Nintendo system, or someone for example modifies the game to work on Dolphin using any controller. I'm just asking about the mechanics and examples of what can be done/has to be done from a general point of view on a regular controller to get a better understanding of the subject.
If a mechanic can be done smoother on a controller that has two more buttons than the controller you happen to have in mind, then that's fine. As long as it's within reason of course. There are also things like the small touch pad on the Dualshock 3, but I'd prefer if this was kept to conventional buttons.

But regarding what you said about the problem with moving the sword around, it would help if I knew how that worked on the Wii.
Can you only move the sword around like that in a circular motion while you hold down Z2? Which is also what you use to lock on to targets? Or can you do it without holding down any button?
As for stabbing, if you just poke in front of you, then I was thinking perhaps L3 would work? It's on both the gamepad and Dualshock for example. I'm not sure what it's called on the Gamepad though, but it's when you press down the left analogue, and it works like a button.

But if you can't chose where to stab, how can you stab the eye on that enemy you showed before? Does Link just happen to hold his sword level with the eye of that monster? Judging by the picture it looked like it was about level with Link's head, so I assumed it would be an upward stabbing motion?


The Z button isn't the ZL/ZR button. It's not the more general term. It's the most specific term you could use, and it's only used for playstation platforms. XB uses LT and RT. Everyone calls it something different. I wasn't even trying to turn that into a point of discussion or really even correct you on it, but it literally makes no sence to call it that. You're talking about an exclusive Nintendo game from an exclusive Nintendo IP that will only happen on an exclusive Nintendo platform. Nintendo would never be allowed to use a button called "L2." It's the same thing with the LR buttons. Only Nintendo calls it that. Face buttons. Everyone's is different. Even Start/Select are different for everyone now, to the point where those buttons technically don't really exist for anyone anymore. For Nintendo it's - and +, for PS4 it's Share and Options, and for XBO it's Back and Start.

I feel like it's a waste of time to speculate on what extra buttons the NX could add for something like this. They aren't going to add buttons just to make a SS rerelease work on a controller with only motion controls, and adding more buttons goes against the function of motion controls in the first place, which was to allow for infinite movement with only one method of input. They were made to be an all in one solution.

Even if you're talking about it running on dolfin, you're still at the mercy of controllers that actually exist. What are they going to use? The Steam Controller? They could probably do it that way, but that isn't a standard controller. You could hold down the grip button and then swipe the touch pad for all the appropriate unputs and just tap the center to poke. You couldn't control the camera, but you couldn't in the original either. 

I've really become lost to what you're asking about, to be honest.



Hiku said:

But regarding what you said about the problem with moving the sword around, it would help if I knew how that worked on the Wii.
Can you only move the sword around like that in a circular motion while you hold down Z2? Which is also what you use to lock on to targets? Or can you do it without holding down any button?
As for stabbing, if you just poke in front of you, then I was thinking perhaps L3 would work? It's on both the gamepad and Dualshock for example. I'm not sure what it's called on the Gamepad though, but it's when you press down the left analogue, and it works like a button.

But if you can't chose where to stab, how can you stab the eye on that enemy you showed before? Does Link just happen to hold his sword level with the eye of that monster? Judging by the picture it looked like it was about level with Link's head, so I assumed it would be an upward stabbing motion?


On Wii your Wiimote acts like a sword 1:1, so when you move it slowly to the right, sword moves slowly to the right. If you hold it up right and then swing down-low, fast, sword will go fast, due to Wiimote detecting speed and acceleration. If you wave your hand around in cirlces, sword will move in circles.

In Dolphin Wiimote Plus branch this is solved in a way that (for example) you assign right stick to Wiimote (sword) X/Y axes with certain slower setting - when you move R stick, it moves slowly. But when you want to move it fast, standard controller stick does not have a way to measure your acceleration - that's why you assign to some button (or stick click) modifier that changes sensitivity, effectivly getting fast movement.

This is actually (depending on setting) a lot faster that you can ever actually swing Wiimote, so fights can to be (again, depending on the setting) a lot easier with enemies that do not ask for specific trajectory to be hit. For those who can block from certain directions, or change what you need to hit, this control method takes some adjusting to, but as I said earlier, it is perfectly playable, and I even prefered to play that way - I tend to have a long 5-6 hour sessions when I play, and waving Wiimote for that long of a time is not comfortable for me - eventually, I finished the game on Wii, beacuse my kids needed help with their playthrough, so I abandoned mine on PC and played with them together on Wii.

Of course, this is not perfect solution, you're mapping something that can move in every direction to standard controller, but apart from drawing everything else was possible. Even drawing would be easy to execute if it was made with stick in mind, but game uses, instead of Wii pointer controls, some wierd combo of tilt and pointer, so that does not translate well to either stick or mouse.

Bottom line - given that SS controls are not made for standard gamepads, yet game is more than playable in Dolphin (again, except for drawing) with standard controller, I really don't see much of a problem for devs to actually redo sword controls for gamepad - sure, it might not be as precise or fluid as Wiimote, but honestly, IMO, it really doesn't need to be.



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HoloDust said:



Bottom line - given that SS controls are not made for standard gamepads, yet game is more than playable in Dolphin (again, except for drawing) with standard controller, I really don't see much of a problem for devs to actually redo sword controls for gamepad - sure, it might not be as precise or fluid as Wiimote, but honestly, IMO, it really doesn't need to be.


I don't really get this people are moaning about simply aiming with the gamepad in SF0 being possibly an issue so why would a more cumbersome approach to SS be more inviting?

If SS is remastered it'll simply come with a packed in Wiimote, far cheaper solution then reworking the whole game, anyone not keen of MC will just have to accept it.



I would be interested in an SS with standard controls. The advanced motion controls were an interesting idea, and I somewhat enjoyed them but I would've probably preferred standard controls with harder enemy AI.



Hiku said:
HoloDust said:

On Wii your Wiimote acts like a sword 1:1, so when you move it slowly to the right, sword moves slowly to the right. If you hold it up right and then swing down-low, fast, sword will go fast, due to Wiimote detecting speed and acceleration. If you wave your hand around in cirlces, sword will move in circles.

In Dolphin Wiimote Plus branch this is solved in a way that (for example) you assign right stick to Wiimote (sword) X/Y axes with certain slower setting - when you move R stick, it moves slowly. But when you want to move it fast, standard controller stick does not have a way to measure your acceleration - that's why you assign to some button (or stick click) modifier that changes sensitivity, effectivly getting fast movement.

This is actually (depending on setting) a lot faster that you can ever actually swing Wiimote, so fights can to be (again, depending on the setting) a lot easier with enemies that do not ask for specific trajectory to be hit. For those who can block from certain directions, or change what you need to hit, this control method takes some adjusting to, but as I said earlier, it is perfectly playable, and I even prefered to play that way - I tend to have a long 5-6 hour sessions when I play, and waving Wiimote for that long of a time is not comfortable for me - eventually, I finished the game on Wii, beacuse my kids needed help with their playthrough, so I abandoned mine on PC and played with them together on Wii.

Of course, this is not perfect solution, you're mapping something that can move in every direction to standard controller, but apart from drawing everything else was possible. Even drawing would be easy to execute if it was made with stick in mind, but game uses, instead of Wii pointer controls, some wierd combo of tilt and pointer, so that does not translate well to either stick or mouse.

Bottom line - given that SS controls are not made for standard gamepads, yet game is more than playable in Dolphin (again, except for drawing) with standard controller, I really don't see much of a problem for devs to actually redo sword controls for gamepad - sure, it might not be as precise or fluid as Wiimote, but honestly, IMO, it really doesn't need to be.

Thanks for that very detailed explanation.
Is the right analog stick really incapable of measuring acceleration though? I feel like I remember playing many games where the reaction was different if I moved the stick fast. Oh yeah, for example, in Smash Bros for Gamecube, if you move the analog forward slowly, the character would walk. But if you move it forward fast, they would run.
But that seems like an odd problem to have. Wouldn't it just need to measure the time it takes between one point and the other? At the very least that would be able to differentiate fast movement to slow movement. Wouldn't that be enough?

I didn't know that there was a Dolphin version that could play this game with standard controllers when I made the topic. In fact, I had heard the opposite. Which might have been true at the time I heard it. I will definitely try it out, as it sounds promising when you say the controlls work better for you for the most part. But depending on how they've translated certain features to standard controls, I may not recognize that there was a change there unless I played, or understand, the original version.

You mentioned that standard controlls were more playable "appart from drawing".
So how was drawing solved in this version?

Well, I guess that if the game was made for standrad controller it would be able to measure somehow if you moved your stick really fast or slow, and to act acordingly - however, when you do that in Dolphin sword does not move fast enough - remember, your initial setting is fairly slow, since that R stick controls all sorts of things, not just sword, that's why there is a modifier to activate other setting (which is set a lot faster).

As for Dolphin Wiimote Plus branch itself, it is quite old, I've played SS a number of years ago - initially, I had to spend some time messing around with contoller settings, but afterwards it was fairly smooth epxerience. Well, until the first drawing that is (that's about half of the game, IIRC)...then I had to connect actual Wiimote and play that through.

As I said earlier, I never got to finish it on Dolphin due to kids asking for help on Wii, so I played with their save onward - they were maybe only about quarter of the game through, so I had a chance to play again with Wiimote same parts of the game.

If you don't shy from fiddling with Dolphin you should definitelly try it, look up some videos on Youtube as well, IIRC, there were people posting settings for 360 controller in that version of Dolphhin. I can't really tell if you'll like it or not, as I said, one of the reasons why I found standard controller to be preferable for me was my very long sessions (later, with kids it was 2 hours max, so I didn't felt that was much of a problem). But, eventually, you will hit that 'drawing' wall, so if they haven't figured that out in the meantime (it was failry long ago when I played SS), you will need Wiimote Plus.

Anyway, bottom line being, if they want to, they can redo controls with no great obstacles in remaster/remake.



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