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Forums - Politics Discussion - Indiana Governer signs bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers.

zelmusario said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:

Civil rights has protected people from discrimination. Discrimination is not a reason to ban people from a business. Hospitals are businesses too. What happens if a gay person has life threatening illness or injury and dont have very long to live? Those religious hospitals would be to blame.

Where I live, we've had more than one incident of this in area hospitals. LGBT individuals being in the hospital and their life partners being forcibly removed (even arrested) and not allowed to visit them any more. Usually, it's a family dispute (family is anti-gay, doesn't like the partner), but it does happen, sadly. 

For every step forward in progress, there will always be push-back. With businesses, at least you can speak with your wallet and choose not to support that business. Overall, I'm very impressed with the current generation of young people and their open-mindedness/tolerance. I doubt that this issue will exist 20 years from now. 


I think the issue will continue thirty years from now. Perhaps not one hundred years from now, but for the most part you're spot on. Every progressive will have to deal with a conservative. The push-back is there.



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Shadow1980 said:

I don't have time to sift through nearly 500 comments, but I will add my two cents to the discussion.

1. )In an ideal world, maybe it would be best to allow businesses to refuse service to whomever they want for whatever reason they want and rational actors in the free market would sort it out. Of course, in an ideal world nobody would give a shit what race, religion, nationality, or sexual orientation somebody is and thus this whole thing would be a non-issue. But we don't live in an ideal world. What we do live in is a world with nuance, subtleties, and fuzzy boundaries, concepts that are lost on most people, and we also have no shortage of people who are anything but rational.

While ideally the market would deal with this because bigoted businesses could be run out of business, as we've seen with Chick-fil-A there are many who will come out to support these businesses out of political principle. The market often fails to function in a rational manner. Businesses are run by people, and those people don't always have profit as their sole concern. They have political principles and religious beliefs that affect how they act. S. Truett Cathy, founder of Chick-fil-A, forewent making addtional money by keeping Chick-fil-A closed on Sunday for religious reasons. If given the chance, many businesses will turn away people for no good reason other than because the owner doesn't like racial or sexual minorities, and despite losing customers there's no guarantee that the market will correct itself. Those businesses can still thrive. Chick-fil-A still does very well as a business because not enough people care enough about their homophobic stances to really impact their businesses. Social conservatives may go there more often just out of principle, and the vast majority of their customers are so utterly apathetic towards anything that doesn't affect them directly that they'll keep going there because they like the food. Tell me, how many of you boycott businesses whose beliefs don't line up with yours? Hell, you've probably directly supported such businesses simply because you never checked to see what their policies were, what candidates they donated money to, or what the beliefs of their owners were.

So, if market solutions aren't guaranteed to work, then what?

Well, if law is going to be passed, we should ensure that it doesn't impose an undue burden on society. This is where we get into things that might not necessarily have clean-cut answers. We must ask ourselves which is more burdensome: Laws that require businesses to serve anyone irrespective of their race, religion, gender or sexual orientation, or laws that allow businesses to discriminate against customers along those same lines? The answers are probably going to be split down the middle. I personally believe that this "religious freedom" bill is the more burdensome. If you start a business open to the public, one that is accessed by public roads, one that may be subject to taxpayer-funded health inspections, one that exists only because they had to get a government-granted business license, then perhaps there's good reason to think that you forgo any rights to tell gays and blacks to piss off.

By allowing businesses to discriminate, it can potentially cause a snarling mess for people having to find someone, anyone that will serve them. Let's say your car broke down in podunk town in the middle of Indiana while you're on a scenic route trip from St. Louis to New York (so no I-70 travel). There's only one mechanic there, but he is a devout fundamentalist Protestant and he doesn't much like the rainbow flag and HRC stickers you have on the back of your car. He could outright refuse to work on your autmobile, thus causing you to waste additional time and money by hiring an LGBT-friendly tow company to hopefully drag your car to the nearest Wal-mart or wherever that will actually serve you. Or let's say you're a Jewish person living in a small town and the local grocery store (the only one in town) ends up with new management, and the new management doesn't like the kippah you're wearing because he hates Jews and decides that your money is no longer good there. Now you're having to  drive 50 extra miles to the next town just to get groceries, and you may end up considering moving altogether, just because state law allowed that new manager to turn your away for being Catholic. And let's not even get into the difficulties of legal discrimination in regards to things like housing and health care, which are usually provided by private entities.

As far as I'm concerned, the right to not have your time and money wasted as you are turned away by business after business trumps the right to not serve any and all customers. Business owners are just as much a part of society as any other individual, and sometimes they may have to obey rules that go against their religious beliefs. There's probably a great many things our tax dollars support that many of us object to on religious grounds, but we still have to pay our taxes even though they might support a war despite your faith possibly being explicitly pacifist, or they might support farm subsidies that go towards raising animals as food even though eating meat might be against your religion. Similarly, a restaurant run by someone who's religion doesn't believe in germ theory for whatever reason still has to conform to health codes. Freedom of religion never entailed the right to go through life without having to do something and/or indirectly support something offensive to your beliefs. You don't want to serve gays? Well, maybe you should have thought about that before starting a business open to the public. Now, I do think that businesses should be able to refuse service to people who are disruptive to their business, and I think a good argument can be made that private clubs should be exempt from having to serve anyone and everyone, but grocery stores, bakeries, restaurants, movie theaters, retail stores, mechanics, hospitals, insurance companies, realtors, apartment owners and so on should not be allowed to discriminate on basis on race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc.

Of course, there's a lot of people who think otherwise and that it's a worse and more undue burden to tell business owners that, yes, they might get gay customers and have to offer them service. But why did they go into business in the first place knowing that at least some of their customers are inevitably going to be gay? On the flip side, if I go into a business I may have no idea what the owner believes because his store doesn't advertise it. Is it worse to force businesses to serve gays even if management doesn't like gays for religious reasons, or is it worse for businesses to be allowed to force potential customers to have to go out of their way, wasting time and money in their process, to look elsewhere for someone that will serve them? That might not be as easy for a government of elected representatives to consistently answer as it would for an individual to answer "What is one plus one" or "What is the atomic weight of cobalt?" Somebody's freedom is going to get violated regardless. I personally choose the customer over the business owner because the customer has more to lose.

This is an example of a fallacy called the "Nirvana fallacy." In your case it goes something like this, "Free market can't solve every case of discrimination, therefore government." You fail to prove that in the cases where the free-market does fail (the gay trip in the middle of Indiana example) that government would do any better (if there were anti-discrimination laws.) Chances are that the mechanic in the middle of po-dunk Indiana would give less than a shit about the law and would discriminate anyway. It would be your word against his with no substantial evidence. The small town judge would collaborate with the existing mechanic (unless he had enemies.) Overall you would be wasting your time and money to try to sue him in such a scenario. He could say he refused service to you because right next to your rainbow flag you had an Bernie Sanders for 2016 sticker and he doesn't do work for socialists (which as far as I recall, is perfectly legal.)  So on and so on. It says a lot of how strongly the market actually does target real world discrimination that you have to choose an obscure example that doesn't even work by government mandate either. 

You proceed to mention Chick-Fil-A as an example of a company that didn't lose at least something by market forces. Well there are problems with this example. 1. Chick-Fil-A is not a discriminatory case. They were still selling to gay people. The chief-operating officer just brought his own opinions into the debate on gay marriage and used it to represent the company. Do you believe that his speech should be regulated because the market didn't prevent him from saying shitty things? Of course not. 2. Said officer was reprimanded for his actions by the company, likely due to an analysis that if they didn't deal well with bad publicity in the future they will experience losses. (Source) Chick-Fil-A also reduced funding to anti-gay activist groups in response to the incident. 3. Here is a paper which has thoroughly investigated the matter of free-market and tolerance.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/kykl.12017/abstract

Tolerance has the potential to affect both economic growth and wellbeing. It is therefore important to discern its determinants. We contribute to the literature by investigating whether the degree to which economic institutions and policies are market-oriented is related to different measures of tolerance. Cross-sectional and first-difference regression analysis of up to 69 countries reveals that economic freedom is positively related to tolerance towards homosexuals, especially in the longer run, while tolerance towards people of a different race and a willingness to teach kids tolerance are not strongly affected by how free markets are. Stable monetary policy and outcomes is the area of economic freedom most consistently associated with greater tolerance, but the quality of the legal system seems to matter as well. Through instrumental variables and first-difference results we find indications of a causal relationship.

4. Boycotting a business is not the only market factor involved. If a business discriminates it is giving its customers to competitors, as they are not allowed to purchase goods at said first business. This benefits the competitor and harms (by poor choices) the first business. In markets where a minority is not a minority (the south) this is especially true. In markets where the minority is still a minority (the north) this is also true. Eliminating a consumer/producer base creates issues for an economy. That is why southerners had to rely on slavery and then Jim Crow laws to get the best of both worlds, serve black consumers (get their money) but also not have to treat them the same as whites to get said money. 

In your cost-benefit analysis you forget to consider costs of legislation and also unforeseen consequences. Furthermore you use faulty premises like "public roads go to the business therefore they must do the governments bidding." I'll explain quickly why this is fault. 1. The money used to pay for the roads comes from your local (or if on  a state road - state) taxes. Therefore you already paid the debt you owed for the road and are no longer indebted. Furthermore, a business must only get a license because government says so. It isn't as if a business (if they were giving freedom to do so) couldn't work without a government awarded license (doctor's licenses for example are privately awarded.) 2. If we use such logic then we are all leasers of government property and only permitted to use it in so much as a central authority in washington, our state capital, or our city council decides us to own something. That is a degredation of property rights, which in the long term, eliminates much economic freedom (as I said unforeseen consequences.) If the assumption is that economic freedom is important as well as social freedom, then this is an issue separate from religion (which is why I am against anti-discrimination despite probably falling within multiple groups which could be likely discriminated against and also being an athiest.) You mention that our two options are a law that protects discrimination and protects against discrimination. Those aren't our two options. There is a third option: not get the state involved in the private affairs of how people associate with one another and don't waste tax money on either law. 

Beside the argument that a degredation of property rights will degrade economic freedom, let's also look at the cases in which this law seems to address. The "wedding cake" incidents. In one case a couple who owned a bakery and who refused to create a wedding cake for a gay marriage was demanded to pay $100,000 to the gay couple they refused. So one group of people gets $100,000 (or some percentage of that) from another group of people, and they also know very well that they can go to another store possibly as close as down the street and buy a wedding cake. Their wedding was just paid for and they got their cake. Tough deal there, I must say. In the second case, the baker was forced to close his business. Are these state powers over one's private business reasonable in a society which posits economic freedom? In the end who was hurt more? How exactly do you think the religious right would respond to such a scenario? They'll become fearful and hold even more animosity toward gays, when otherwise they might have just been accepting it as a reality of the times which probably won't really affect them. In response, they create a law to combat this, and said law might have undesirable and unintended effects. Sure we might be able to think of another specific scenario of discrimination against people based on sexuality that is more debalitating than this one, but fortunately such examples aren't rising up. No matter how much I look for it I can't find information about a gay person not being able to find something to eat, not receiving health-care, or dieing in the middle of nowhere because somebody refused to fix their car in the plethora of states which do not prohibit discrimination based on sexuality. Even if it were true that gays are harmed by said property rights, we are also benefited as everyone is by proper property rights. If we were to make laws by how they affect people, then the number 1 law people in the LGBT should be against is any law which supports freedom of speech. Hate speech towards gays by their family and strangers probably hurts us a lot more than sporadic discrimination when introduced to the religious right. Nevertheless, I think most LGBT people support free speech in all of its cases, even hate speech, because they recognize that any facilities that are put in to place to regulate hate speech will also regulate non-hate speech, and by trying to restrict others of their rights we in turn lose our own. 

Anyway, sorry for the long wall. :) I thought I'd reply because I found your post to collect all of the common arguments against propertarinism in this context. 



sc94597 said:

While I think the law should include any ethical views, as this refers to private property, I do have some criticisms of your post beyond that: 

1. Slippery Slope fallacy. Hippocratic oath prevents this in most cases. The doctor would likely lose his job and license (which is granted through private organizations) if he did that. A hospital that turned down sick people would likely have absymal reputation. 

2. Again Taxi cab drivers don't determine who they are allowed to drive, they just drive. It is a boss who determies this. And if Taxi corporations did this Lyft and Uber would run them into the ground. Furthermore, since Taxi companies have a monopoly privelge and subsidies by government in many cities, the city should/would threaten to remove said monopoly privelege if they were to discriminate. Taxi companies would comply with said cities because they realize they'd lose even more revenue if the city were to do this. 

3. It was a response to people getting sued hundreds of thousands of dollars or losing their business because they didn't provide a wedding cake for a gay wedding. 

4. No it's not. This is a false equivalence.  

5. Probably not. SCoTUS has shied away from determining sexuality as protected under the CRA. I don't see where the courts would conflict on this matter. As for seperation of church and state, it isn't a codified law but more of a legal policy. I do think non-religious ethical views/morals matter as well though. It is silly to single out only religous beliefs.  

6. The tax argument is legitimate for any one to be honest, not just religious people, but we won't get into that because I realize that isn't how the overwhelming majority of people see things. You only have rights in so much as you don't infringe upon others (not providing a piece of your property in exchange for another piece of property is not infringing on another's rights, although it might reduce their "positive freedoms.") If you steal from other people you are taking their property without their permission, therefore you are infringing on their property rights, and no - religion doesn't protect that, just like religion doesn't protect against murder and slavery. This one is a non-sequitur. 

1.  Actually no, the law allows religious feelings to override all other laws.  So you could not punish an ER doctor for refusing service. That would be a violating of the law.

2  Again, no unlike the national and all other laws, Indiana's one makes a special case for Private Business.  So they can do what they want or feel and can not be punished for it.

3.  They didn't lose money in the suit, they lost money cause nobody else wanted to buy from them.  They lost most all of their customers – bigotry is frowned upon in the USA.  And they violated State Law in that case AND make cakes for 'happy Satan Day' and other things (after the refusal) that would also be a violation of their 'Christian Values' if they genuily had some (But just hated the gay.)  They had also made cake for the two women, and their anniversaries for years before.  They only got in legal trouble because they directly violated State Law.

4.  Yes, this absolutely is a Christian version of Shiria Law.  It is directly against the founding of the country (removing all religion, and the head of the state and Church being the same person, etc.)  This law is against the founding principals of the USA.  This law puts religion above all other laws.  It's part of the reason the reaction is so huge. 

5.  You must not have followed the Prop 8 or DOMA cases where 'highest scrutiny' has been cited numerous times in Federal Courts. Also in In re Marriage Cases, 43 Cal.4th 757 (2008) was a California Supreme Court case where the court held that laws treating classes of persons differently based on sexual orientation should be subject to strict judicial scrutiny, and that an existing statute and initiative measure limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples violate the rights of same-sex couples under the California Constitution and may not be used to preclude them from marrying.

6.  I know, isn't it fun!  Let's make a 'Church of the Tax Free!'

6a  Religions as used in the USA for nearly a hundred years to justify slavery (and in the areas long before that.)  And Rape of women and other such wholesome activities.

PS Someone has already made a ‘Church of Cannabis.'

Even Walmart and NASCAR have come out against it.  Rather amazing IMO.



 

Really not sure I see any point of Consol over PC's since Kinect, Wii and other alternative ways to play have been abandoned. 

Top 50 'most fun' game list coming soon!

 

Tell me a funny joke!

Zappykins said:
sc94597 said:
 

While I think the law should include any ethical views, as this refers to private property, I do have some criticisms of your post beyond that: 

1. Slippery Slope fallacy. Hippocratic oath prevents this in most cases. The doctor would likely lose his job and license (which is granted through private organizations) if he did that. A hospital that turned down sick people would likely have absymal reputation. 

2. Again Taxi cab drivers don't determine who they are allowed to drive, they just drive. It is a boss who determies this. And if Taxi corporations did this Lyft and Uber would run them into the ground. Furthermore, since Taxi companies have a monopoly privelge and subsidies by government in many cities, the city should/would threaten to remove said monopoly privelege if they were to discriminate. Taxi companies would comply with said cities because they realize they'd lose even more revenue if the city were to do this. 

3. It was a response to people getting sued hundreds of thousands of dollars or losing their business because they didn't provide a wedding cake for a gay wedding. 

4. No it's not. This is a false equivalence.  

5. Probably not. SCoTUS has shied away from determining sexuality as protected under the CRA. I don't see where the courts would conflict on this matter. As for seperation of church and state, it isn't a codified law but more of a legal policy. I do think non-religious ethical views/morals matter as well though. It is silly to single out only religous beliefs.  

6. The tax argument is legitimate for any one to be honest, not just religious people, but we won't get into that because I realize that isn't how the overwhelming majority of people see things. You only have rights in so much as you don't infringe upon others (not providing a piece of your property in exchange for another piece of property is not infringing on another's rights, although it might reduce their "positive freedoms.") If you steal from other people you are taking their property without their permission, therefore you are infringing on their property rights, and no - religion doesn't protect that, just like religion doesn't protect against murder and slavery. This one is a non-sequitur. 

1.  Actually no, the law allows religious feelings to override all other laws.  So you could not punish an ER doctor for refusing service. That would be a violating of the law.

2  Again, no unlike the national and all other laws, Indiana's one makes a special case for Private Business.  So they can do what they want or feel and can not be punished for it.

3.  They didn't lose money in the suit, they lost money cause nobody else wanted to buy from them.  They lost most all of their customers – bigotry is frowned upon in the USA.  And they violated State Law in that case AND make cakes for 'happy Satan Day' and other things (after the refusal) that would also be a violation of their 'Christian Values' if they genuily had some (But just hated the gay.)  They had also made cake for the two women, and their anniversaries for years before.  They only got in legal trouble because they directly violated State Law.

4.  Yes, this absolutely is a Christian version of Shiria Law.  It is directly against the founding of the country (removing all religion, and the head of the state and Church being the same person, etc.)  This law is against the founding principals of the USA.  This law puts religion above all other laws.  It's part of the reason the reaction is so huge. 

5.  You must not have followed the Prop 8 or DOMA cases where 'highest scrutiny' has been cited numerous times in Federal Courts. Also in In re Marriage Cases, 43 Cal.4th 757 (2008) was a California Supreme Court case where the court held that laws treating classes of persons differently based on sexual orientation should be subject to strict judicial scrutiny, and that an existing statute and initiative measure limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples violate the rights of same-sex couples under the California Constitution and may not be used to preclude them from marrying.

6.  I know, isn't it fun!  Let's make a 'Church of the Tax Free!'

6a  Religions as used in the USA for nearly a hundred years to justify slavery (and in the areas long before that.)  And Rape of women and other such wholesome activities.

PS Someone has already made a ‘Church of Cannabis.'

Even Walmart and NASCAR have come out against it.  Rather amazing IMO.

You missed the context of my post. It was about markets targetting discrimination, not government. Nothing pertaining specifically to this law. 

4. No it's not. It is like saying, " if you advocate the government's involvement in the economy, it is the same thing as a communist." Rational people can calculate degrees of something, and this law is nowhere near as close to the breadth and depth in which Sharia law affects people's lives in Islamic countries (hetero and non hetero alike.) 

5. That has more to do with the 14th Amendment of the U.S constitution than CRA. As it is right now, the Supreme Court hasn't said anything about same-sex discrimination. Notice "laws that treat people differently" rather than "private persons that treat people differently." 

6. That seems out of context. 



A business in Indiana was thanking the governor and didn't believe the law was discriminatory. Let the blind discrimination begin!



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sc94597 said:
Zappykins said:

1.  Actually no, the law allows religious feelings to override all other laws.  So you could not punish an ER doctor for refusing service. That would be a violating of the law.

2  Again, no unlike the national and all other laws, Indiana's one makes a special case for Private Business.  So they can do what they want or feel and can not be punished for it.

3.  They didn't lose money in the suit, they lost money cause nobody else wanted to buy from them.  They lost most all of their customers – bigotry is frowned upon in the USA.  And they violated State Law in that case AND make cakes for 'happy Satan Day' and other things (after the refusal) that would also be a violation of their 'Christian Values' if they genuily had some (But just hated the gay.)  They had also made cake for the two women, and their anniversaries for years before.  They only got in legal trouble because they directly violated State Law.

4.  Yes, this absolutely is a Christian version of Shiria Law.  It is directly against the founding of the country (removing all religion, and the head of the state and Church being the same person, etc.)  This law is against the founding principals of the USA.  This law puts religion above all other laws.  It's part of the reason the reaction is so huge. 

5.  You must not have followed the Prop 8 or DOMA cases where 'highest scrutiny' has been cited numerous times in Federal Courts. Also in In re Marriage Cases, 43 Cal.4th 757 (2008) was a California Supreme Court case where the court held that laws treating classes of persons differently based on sexual orientation should be subject to strict judicial scrutiny, and that an existing statute and initiative measure limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples violate the rights of same-sex couples under the California Constitution and may not be used to preclude them from marrying.

6.  I know, isn't it fun!  Let's make a 'Church of the Tax Free!'

6a  Religions as used in the USA for nearly a hundred years to justify slavery (and in the areas long before that.)  And Rape of women and other such wholesome activities.

PS Someone has already made a ‘Church of Cannabis.'

Even Walmart and NASCAR have come out against it.  Rather amazing IMO.

You missed the context of my post. It was about markets targetting discrimination, not government. Nothing pertaining specifically to this law. 

4. No it's not. It is like saying, " if you advocate the government's involvement in the economy, it is the same thing as a communist." Rational people can calculate degrees of something, and this law is nowhere near as close to the breadth and depth in which Sharia law affects people's lives in Islamic countries (hetero and non hetero alike.) 

5. That has more to do with the 14th Amendment of the U.S constitution than CRA. As it is right now, the Supreme Court hasn't said anything about same-sex discrimination. Notice "laws that treat people differently" rather than "private persons that treat people differently." 

6. That seems out of context. 

4. Nah, " if you advocate the government's involvement in the economy, it is the same thing as a communist"  Socialism, that is socialism.  Like the Fire Department, Police, Paramedics- they serve everyone regardless of financial status.  It's socialism, and I have no problem with it.

That recent case where the FD just watched and let someone who hadn’t pay some extra fee's house burn shows that it's a good idea for the good of all to protect everyone.  They only started to fight it when the fire grew and spread to other people's homes.  (Plus the insurance companies bill are so much higher now.)

Also the growing of resistant strains of tuberculosis are a result of Regan throwing the homeless (mentally ill) people out on the streets, AIDS and a combination of the two.  If we had better universal care, the new TB would have been minimized.  In the late 90’s around 1/3 of LA’s homeless population tested positive for TB.  

6.  Really?  It's a direct consequence of the Indiana law.  I think it’s funny he accidently made marijuana legal.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/03/30/the-first-church-of-cannabis-was-approved-after-indianas-religious-freedom-law-was-passed/

 



 

Really not sure I see any point of Consol over PC's since Kinect, Wii and other alternative ways to play have been abandoned. 

Top 50 'most fun' game list coming soon!

 

Tell me a funny joke!

Zappykins said:

4. Nah, " if you advocate the government's involvement in the economy, it is the same thing as a communist"  Socialism, that is socialism.  Like the Fire Department, Police, Paramedics- they serve everyone regardless of financial status.  It's socialism, and I have no problem with it.

That recent case where the FD just watched and let someone who hadn’t pay some extra fee's house burn shows that it's a good idea for the good of all to protect everyone.  They only started to fight it when the fire grew and spread to other people's homes.  (Plus the insurance companies bill are so much higher now.)

Also the growing of resistant strains of tuberculosis are a result of Regan throwing the homeless (mentally ill) people out on the streets, AIDS and a combination of the two.  If we had better universal care, the new TB would have been minimized.  In the late 90’s around 1/3 of LA’s homeless population tested positive for TB.  

6.  Really?  It's a direct consequence of the Indiana law.  I think it’s funny he accidently made marijuana legal.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/03/30/the-first-church-of-cannabis-was-approved-after-indianas-religious-freedom-law-was-passed/

 

 

4. My point was an analogy of two different statements in which one person equates one instance with another without regard for the real-world degree. Also the government can and often does have a role in an economy without owning the means of production, and therefore not providing a social good. None of what you typed after that is relevant. 

6. My statement was that, " religion does not protect someone if they initiate force, such as: enslaving another human being, stealing from them, or mudering them." It might've in the past, but in today's world it is not protected by the state. So yeah, saying that Christianity justified slavery in 17th - 19th centuries isn't relevant to what my original statement was. 



zelmusario said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:

Civil rights has protected people from discrimination. Discrimination is not a reason to ban people from a business. Hospitals are businesses too. What happens if a gay person has life threatening illness or injury and dont have very long to live? Those religious hospitals would be to blame.

Where I live, we've had more than one incident of this in area hospitals. LGBT individuals being in the hospital and their life partners being forcibly removed (even arrested) and not allowed to visit them any more. Usually, it's a family dispute (family is anti-gay, doesn't like the partner), but it does happen, sadly. 

For every step forward in progress, there will always be push-back. With businesses, at least you can speak with your wallet and choose not to support that business. Overall, I'm very impressed with the current generation of young people and their open-mindedness/tolerance. I doubt that this issue will exist 20 years from now. 

i dont know if this is realy antigay. that can happen to heterosexuells too.  the only way out is to marry



generic-user-1 said:
zelmusario said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:

Civil rights has protected people from discrimination. Discrimination is not a reason to ban people from a business. Hospitals are businesses too. What happens if a gay person has life threatening illness or injury and dont have very long to live? Those religious hospitals would be to blame.

Where I live, we've had more than one incident of this in area hospitals. LGBT individuals being in the hospital and their life partners being forcibly removed (even arrested) and not allowed to visit them any more. Usually, it's a family dispute (family is anti-gay, doesn't like the partner), but it does happen, sadly. 

For every step forward in progress, there will always be push-back. With businesses, at least you can speak with your wallet and choose not to support that business. Overall, I'm very impressed with the current generation of young people and their open-mindedness/tolerance. I doubt that this issue will exist 20 years from now. 

i dont know if this is realy antigay. that can happen to heterosexuells too.  the only way out is to marry

True, but if you can't marry, or make legal documents similar to them (which was illegal in some states) you have no rights.

Which is one of the reason people fought so hard for same sex marriage.  Cause they didn't have any other options.

I think it will be about as controversial in 15 years as is letting women work, own property, and drive is today.



 

Really not sure I see any point of Consol over PC's since Kinect, Wii and other alternative ways to play have been abandoned. 

Top 50 'most fun' game list coming soon!

 

Tell me a funny joke!

generic-user-1 said:

i dont know if this is realy antigay. that can happen to heterosexuells too.  the only way out is to marry

It is anti-gay. They are hiding and using the bible as a crutch to be prejudiced, when the bible says tells people to love their neighbor and even their enemy. Then again...the bible tends to contradict itself, so one book might have different material than another pertaining to the same thing.

Getting the governor to make an law that allows businesses to turn away gays is like a lobbyist from a corporation to get an unfair law pushed againsts the general public (which happens a little bit too much in the US). Difference is one is against a minority by a believer who doesn't read his bible properly.