i don't think you know how chip manufacturing works. And that would mean that it will take too much work to explain all this to you. 

And Nvidia is dissatisfied for a lot of different reasons. Again its best to read up on that, they had a whole presentation calling out their chip manufacturer.  

I read that ages ago and I think you are accusing me of not knowing but you have no clue yourself.

The problem with high powered GPUs is that the electron leakage is a bigger problem because more electrons have to go through the thin circuitry, and they are bigger meaning a bigger piece of the waver has to be perfect. With lower performing smaller chips its more forgiving. The yields for 20nm high performance chips were abysmal and offered no costadvantage. Which is why Nvidia was disatsified with the Node. TSMC was incapable of delievering enough perfect big chips. making it too costly for Nvida and AMD to jump to 20nm. The phone industry doesnt need big chips so they could live with the process quality. before we dont see AMD and NVIDIA with 20nm gpus there is no way we see a shrink for PS4/Xbox one they have even less room to unload the additional costs to their  customers (exactly zero room) so they will be last on the 20nm Node. Its logical. Before there is no GTX 1080 we wont get a Slim PS4/Xbox one (atleast none with a 20nm APU).

You can read up about it on the known forums let someone that knows more then me explain you the difference between high and low performance chips and the consequences. I have googled for you http://techsoda.com/no-20nm-graphics-amd-nvidia/ you can read this first if you want. You are welcome.

ok, take two chips for instance. one is 28nm, and one is 20nm. there is about a 50% size reduction between the two. Now if the two chips, having the exact same number of transistors are fabbed on the exact same sized wafer, the you simply will be able to put more of the 20nm chips on the wafer, and be able to run at a higher clock because since the chip needs less power to run, it will generate less heat. 

Now these lower power chips you keep mentioning, the important thing about those chips are their size. The PS4 apu for instance is ~350mm/sq. A GPU like say the R9 290 is around 380mm/sq. All GPU. A smartphone processor is around 60mm/sq. mind you, that processor is a SOC. Remember, smaller the processor size, less power they need, less heat generated. 

Now back to the PS4. in any fabrication process, yields are always a problem, and the more mature the fabrication gets, the higher the yields. This is important cause OEMs don't pay for individual chips per say, they pay for a wafer. If yields are low, they get less for their money. With smart phones, this isn't a problem cause the chips are so small that its pretty hard to get faulty chips and of course the required volume is massive. With the PS4 certain steps were taken to ensure a rapid uptake to newer fabrication processes.

They disabled 2  of the 20 cores in the GPU. Bear in mind, they PS4 (and XB1 for that matter) was built on a very mature fabrication process (28nm) so yields for the PS4 in particular (since they don't have to worry about putting SRAM on die) are extremely high. Disabling 2 cores is a luxury they can afford to ensure that when the next fab process comes alomg , even with defective chips, they can still make the most out of their purchased wafers. 

Wafers are sold at a near fixed price, fabrication size determines how many chips you get on each wafer, fabrication maturity determines how many of those chips are actually good. GPUs growth is based on putting more and more transistors into a near fixed die size, the size of their dies don't get smaller, they fan process does and they just put more stuff in there. The PS4 circumvents all these fabrication issues by disabling some of its GPU cores. that is why they can jump onto a new fabrication process before it becomes mature. a lesson the learnt  from the ps3 time. 

No thats just false the PS4 is a high performance chip the APU is big and needs alot of power its wy bigger then phone chips. Just because they disabled 2 of the Compute Units doesnt mean the PS4 chips is not a high performance Chip. Which currently are ZERO on the 20nm node. All you told me I already knew. What exactly are you trying to argue here ? That miraculously the PS4 APU can be produced cost efficently on 20nm while all other Products can not ????

Sigh.... 

An R9 290x has 40 compute units, each compute unit is made up of 64 shader cores, as I'm sure you know. The PS4 has 20 CUs. A "good" 290x chip will have all 40 of those compute units working. A "good" PS4 chip requires only 18 of its 20 cores working. 

If AMD/Nvidia pay let's just say $10k for a wafer that has 100 chips on it, and expect that 1 in every 10 chips is probably defective, then they are efeectively paying for just 90. And if 3 in every 10 are bad then they are paying the same $10k but now for only 70 chips. Sony circumvents this problem because out of those 100 chips on that wafer, Sony will be able to use practically every single one, cause even if a chip is defective that defect will most likely not affect more than one CU or at worst two of them. simply meaning they can meet a higher yield. And also that they can move onto new fabrication processes faster. Don't know how else to explain his to you.

But let's just agree to disagree and see what happens in 12-18 months. 

Ofcourse the chances of a smaller chip to work are higher. But if that happens Nvidia and AMD will roll out first their mid sized 20nm GPUs before the big ones enter. Sony and MS chips wont give AMD such a high margin so obviously they will first make some profits with selling their 20nm GPU line up. But the APUs of Ps4 and Xone also have CPU Cores on them so they are quite big. The profit margin on the APUs in both consoles are very slim so why would AMD waste their precious capacities on something that is contractually fixed already. 20nm for PS4/Xone will come but only when the process matured enough and they made first some bucks on their own PC GPUs. This is way more important for the Industry then the PS4 chips since the progress is halted and tons of other industries wait for more computing power. Consoles are not the priority they will first start to profit from 20nm when it became fairly cheap. In the beginning 20nm will not be profitable for Consoles. Think about it the newer GPUs will cost as much as the whole consoles and more. My point is that before there is not even a 20nm line up announced a release date we will definetly not see a 20nm APU in consoles. The size difference between high end gpus and the APUs is way smaller then the size difference between Phone chips and the APUs. There is a factor of 10 between them while there is a factor of not even 2 between PS4/Xone Apu and the biggest Nvidia/AMD GPU. If you can make Console APUs on 20nm you can also roll out the new GPUs. GTX 680 is just 294mm2 both APUs are way bigger. 500-600mm2 is the biggest.

All rumors and pictures of a Slim version of the PS4 are fake aslong we havent even an announced release date for 20nm GPUs thats simple logic. In 18 Months the landscape could be different but I doubt Sony or MS will get the capacities at a cheaper or atleast same price then their current 28nm APUs any time soon. There is a huge pend up demand for 20nm we haven seen a node shrink for GPUs since December 2011 that was more then 3 years ago. Also historically AMD/Nvidia first bring their super expensive Flagship GPU on a new node before the others roll out due to the way higher profit margin. My guess would be 2017/2018 Slim Versions maybe 20nm will even be totally skipped the PS4 is fairly small. the Xone needs a Slim way more then the PS4. So there is no way Sony does it before its not way cheaper to redesign the thing.

you really don't know how these things work. Yes all rumors and pics are fake. Not talking about that.

Waste their precious capacities? what the hell are you talking about? 

And how many times will I have to say this to you, one of the benefits of disabling GPU cores (the amount of shader cores that are made are so much that this is where defects are most likely to pop up.) is that you do not have to wait until Feb processes becomes more mature before you adopt the new fan tech. You just keep ignoring that and I keep saying it over and over again. 

Actually here.... tired of repeating myself. 

and a small quote from the above link.

"The move from one production node to another historically takes much longer on console, as existing production technologies become more reliable (meaning a higher chip yield per wafer). However, it's clear AMD has incorporated measures into both Xbox One and PS4 processors to make the transition onto small fabrication technologies faster this time around. On the silicon itself, the graphics portion of the processor features a full 14 compute units on Xbox One and 20 on PlayStation 4. In both cases, two compute units are disabled on the final retail units in order to increase production yield.

The 28nm production process was very mature by the time the new wave of consoles went into production, meaning there was probably little need to disable any part of the chip on either console. Indeed, in our Xbox One architects interview, the team discussed with us how they could enable the full 14 compute unit graphics hardware on development systems for testing purposes. However, deactivating those parts of the chip means the technology should be able to transition across to 20nm more quickly - the production yield per wafer increases as the chips don't need to be absolutely perfect. In short, both the Xbox One and PS4 processors were designed to be cheap to produce on current 28nm production technology, but flexible enough to move across to more advanced fabrication nodes more quickly than their predecessors."

Double Post

No you dont understand my point. The whole segment of High performance chips (any chip with a significantly higher then 10 watt TDP aka no tablet and no phone chip) on 20nm doesnt exist yet at all. And once this high performance segment of 20nm chips exists produced by GF and TSMC there will only be enough production capacities to cater to the high demand for 20nm GPUs (PC GPUs or Industrial GPUs like the Tesla series from Nvidia for Supercomptuer and professional uses). Because they wont be able to produce as much as its needed. So they have contracts in place and Nvidia and AMD wont get infinite chips from them once they are ready.

So they WOULD have to produce less of their 20nm GPUs (which will be sold out for months once they reach the markets) to manufacture the PS4 APU (well AMD would have to do it) with a lower profit margin. Why in gods name would AMD do that, thats practically destroying Billions of Dollar of revenue.

Yes the freaking Compute Units are deactivated on the 28nm process to get higher yields. So ? What is your point there ? NO chips with high TDP no matter how small and how few Compute Units can be produced at the moment at all. Because TSMC only caters to Apple and other mobile manufacturers which need totally different and tiny chips and dont have the same requirements as the high TDP Processors. Seriously. I think you are the one who has no clue because I need to explain everything to you.

Its just not logical that AMD would let TSMC/GF produce PS4 APUs unless Sony pays extra for it to make up the losses AMD would generate by not being able to produce their own GPUs. Because they fill their allocated Chips with PS4 APUs !

There wont be enough capacities for 20nm in the beginning, its that simple. Making it more expenisive because: The demand dictates the price. There is not even one fab right now that can do it period.

Again TSMC wont be able to produce as much chips as needed in the beginning for 20nm. Yields and total capacities wont be good enough for something low priority like Console APUs to be financially viable....