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Forums - Politics Discussion - Besides color, How are African Americans and Whites of European decent Different?

bigjon said:
Another topic to add to this why has there there never been an all black successful civilization? I mean had the ancient African built a great empire and subjugated the Europeans it would all look different now.

My theory is civilized development is tied to external requirements. If a tribal hunter gatherer society is adequate than you never advance. (For instance, I live in Hawaaii and I can see why they never modernized, it's perfect all year round)

The earliest civilians evolved around flood plains(Egypt, Mesopotamia, Indus River) in order to properly use the limited resources people were forced to work together. Then as people populated temperate climates learning how to essentially survive the winter pushed people toward technological advances.
None of these scenarios existed in Africa or even the Amazon.


This is a popular leftist rationalization for the apparent inequality among historical groups (notably expounded in Germs, guns & steel). However, as I pointed out before, the hypothesis doesn't preclude biological factors, instead it actually suggests a mechanism whereby we would expect biological differences to be created. Eg if Europeans needed planning and more sophisticated technology to survive, then that pressure would result in the more intelligent members of European societies having a reproductive advantage, and we would thus expect the population to become,on average, more intelligent. Absent these pressures, or given different pressures that instead emphasized other traits, we would expect different genetic shifts. Therefore, while environment can explain historical inequities, there is every  reason to believe that those differences are now expressed in the genetic code of these various populations regardless of environment.



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McGilliguts said:
bigjon said:
Another topic to add to this why has there there never been an all black successful civilization? I mean had the ancient African built a great empire and subjugated the Europeans it would all look different now.

My theory is civilized development is tied to external requirements. If a tribal hunter gatherer society is adequate than you never advance. (For instance, I live in Hawaaii and I can see why they never modernized, it's perfect all year round)

The earliest civilians evolved around flood plains(Egypt, Mesopotamia, Indus River) in order to properly use the limited resources people were forced to work together. Then as people populated temperate climates learning how to essentially survive the winter pushed people toward technological advances.
None of these scenarios existed in Africa or even the Amazon.


This is a popular leftist rationalization for the apparent inequality among historical groups (notably expounded in Germs, guns & steel). However, as I pointed out before, the hypothesis doesn't preclude biological factors, instead it actually suggests a mechanism whereby we would expect biological differences to be created. Eg if Europeans needed planning and more sophisticated technology to survive, then that pressure would result in the more intelligent members of European societies having a reproductive advantage, and we would thus expect the population to become,on average, more intelligent. Absent these pressures, or given different pressures that instead emphasized other traits, we would expect different genetic shifts. Therefore, while environment can explain historical inequities, there is every  reason to believe that those differences are now expressed in the genetic code of these various populations regardless of environment.


I agree, but it is not PC to take it that far....



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Chromeo said:
There are physical differences other than color. Certain common feature traits like hair and nose shape that are different amongst many races.


Lips and jaw structure I think as well(typically but not always0.  But apart from the physical features of the head, no, no differences.  There is always the fact of 'value' among skin colour(and how that affects one's psyche and therir peception of the world and others), but that depends on where you are and the person themself.

You can google differences in races, but unfortunately that'll just yield alot of racists results.  Some agendas are clear by just the name of the webpage.

Penis size studies are a bit iffy.  Some say about the same, while others stateBlack peoples are higher.

Oh and as for the succesful Black nations, quite a bit were sabatauged and undermined by European powers.  Not an excuse really, but throughout many African or black majority countries, there's that sort of influence throughout.

But that sorta depends on where you look as well.  There are a number of Caribbean nations that are doing quite well.  But I guess if you wantto move goalpots you can say that Caribbean is a mixed place or the country isn't big enough or whatever.  In either case, I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic unless it's the usual racist stuff that gets brought up in topics of rcae.



bigjon said:
Another topic to add to this why has there there never been an all black successful civilization? I mean had the ancient African built a great empire and subjugated the Europeans it would all look different now.

My theory is civilized development is tied to external requirements. If a tribal hunter gatherer society is adequate than you never advance. (For instance, I live in Hawaaii and I can see why they never modernized, it's perfect all year round)

The earliest civilians evolved around flood plains(Egypt, Mesopotamia, Indus River) in order to properly use the limited resources people were forced to work together. Then as people populated temperate climates learning how to essentially survive the winter pushed people toward technological advances.
None of these scenarios existed in Africa or even the Amazon.


For Africans its easier to explain than the Amazonians. The groups that became civilized migrated out of Africa went through many things that Africans never had to go through outside of Africa. There are many things that come from this.

1) Access to other migrant groups

2) Trade

3) Outside war

4) Mixing with Neanderthals

5) Weather conditions

6) Other variables not mentioned.

Neccessity causes invention to take place even when a society has been migrating for a long time. Europeans learned to gain civilization from Asians and then they pushed themselves up from there. 



Panther111 said:
McGilliguts said:

I agree that every society can produce geniuses (although the rate and level of production is the real issue), and also that intelligence needs to be applied. Perhaps the most important ingredient to genius is actually creativity, something that does not appear to be directly heritable. I also agree that eq is generally more important for success in society and that most jobs, even well paying ones, don't actually require a high degree of intelligence at all. Still, society is carried forward by geniuses, so their importance can't be underestimated.


How do you believe creativity is linked to genius/intelligence?    Then there must be some real geniuses operating in the gaming industries ;-p creating costumes, scenarios, towns and detailed landscape, characters, art style, battle systems, basically creating a new dimension from scratch ;-p 

but exactly what creativity is though is another question.

Intelligence in the arts and creativity is attributed to having strong amounts of right brained activity. I would know, I play  Sing, play guitar and sometimes play Piano. I was pre juliard and learned to play most by ear. 

What I lack is skill. Creativity and adeptness is a gift...Skill is what I need to strive for. Same goes for anyone who is adept at anything.



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They're both humans. There isn't a difference. Don't use stereotypes.



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For all of the progress that we've made as a race, we're still largely a bunch of tribal apes who get scared by new things, and little differences. Maybe if we stop allowing the corporate overlords to pray on those fears, we would find more common ground and build a world that is worthy of our potential.

That's going require our spiritual and political leaders to look beyond profit as a motivator - which mostly amounts to us growing up and selecting new leadership based on merit/logic rather than charisma/passion. As long as corporations are considered people, elections are popularity contests, and we deny the discoveries of the scientific method on a grand scale, meaningful change and progress will be all but impossible.

Rascism has been directly tied to increased activity in the fear centers of the brain. That's why extreme gun advocates tend to be racist and otherwise paranoid as a rule. Xenophobia is a powerful fear. Deep and painful introspection/contemplation has to be undergone in order to free one's self from its grasp. That requires courage on the part of the person looking to change and support from friends and family.

Logical arguments do little to combat fear - that's why it's used so heavily in politics to coerce the unwary. Simply telling people that racism is "wrong' won't be enough for those who have been cut deep psychologically by pain. We need to stop demonizing racists and start looking for ways to help them overcome their fears and insecurities.

... Sorry for the rant. I've been thinking a lot about this topic over the weekend. I have a racist father-in-law who awakens great anger in me and it takes the better part of my resolve to avoid exploding on him - despite the fact that I know full and well that argument only acts to cement the viewpoint being attacked in any debate.

Normally, I'd simply "let it be," but he appears to be spiraling downward quickly as of late and my wife seems hurt by the whole affair. There are real dangers to succumbing to fear and hate, and we seem to be bringing them to a head right now in the U.S. It's a toxic climate and one that I hope we can begin to remedy.



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Interestingly, one of the more recent discoveries is that Europeans (in fact, most people outside of Africa) have at least some Neanderthal DNA in their gene pool, meaning that at some point those outside Africa interbred with Neanderthals. So, I guess that's an interesting difference.