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Forums - Politics Discussion - The Coming Obamacare Shock for 170 Million Americans

SlayerRondo said:

I find it sadly depressing that people are unwilling to admit that some people should not start a family because they simply cant support them. Jobs in the fast food industry are not and will not ever be capable of supporting a family.


Well.
Half the problem is that the fast food industry *could* be capable of supporting families, there are in-fact examples all around the world of it happening.

Take a look at Australia as an example, the minimum wage is roughly $16-$17 an hour and yet Big-Mac's only cost anywhere from 50-80 cents more.
That's a wage that you can comfortably live on, sure you won't be travelling around the world...
And because of the high minimum wage, people in general don't leave tips because there simply isn't any need for it, would you feel comfortable in spending less than a dollar to make sure someone can feed their children? I sure do.
Heck, you might even save money as you don't need to leave tips.

Half the problem in the USA is that the median wage and minimum wages have essentially remained stagnant over several decades, whilst the worth of the dollar has been dropping thanks to inflation. - You won't for instance be working at Mc Donalds, looking after a child and seeking higher education to give you qualifications for a better job in the future, it's simply unfeasible. - And that's why the USA isn't the land of opportunity anymore if you're on the bottom of the ladder trying to work upwards.



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Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
thranx said:
Mr Khan said:
 

 

 


But people also have more money in their pockets to spend on goods and services. Why do we always neglect that part of the equation? You can't just assume that inflation is going to zero all of it out, especially since we've been in a *very* low inflation environment (QE is the only thing keeping deflation from happening. The market right now wants deflation to happen. Inflation is a boogeyman in Western societies)

Automation is going to happen anyway. That's just an inevitability, because businesses will always root around to try to figure out how to minimize labor costs, just as they'll root around to figure out how to minimize costs of all their other inputs (even I as an advocate for labor will admit that it's not some conspiracy against the working man, but neither is it a process that is kept at bay only because of low minimum wages). Companies will always be working to figure out what the bare minimum number of employees is to get the job done, and guess what: if they have to pay more, they still can't get rid of people without making the quality of the work suffer, because they've likely already cut back to only what is needed.

Note that the chili's article talked more about improving speed of service through automation, rather than about labor costs. That's why you automate.


Eh, i find that's not actually true.

If you'll note, the GFC caused a huge loss of jobs in a lot of sectors with minimal productivity loss.  Jobs that never really came back.

Companies, tned to increase employees when they need help, but only decrease employees when something forces them to or they are buisnesses with sharp seasonal curves.

I imagine this is at least partly because nobody actually likes to fire other people, partly because reducing workforce is generally seen as a negative that will hurt your stock and nobody wants to be blamed for overdownsizing their workforce when things are working great.

This is espiecally true when it requires hefty upfront costs as required with automation.

 

For example note how self checkout aisles aren't nearly as prevelent as you would expect.

Many Hospitals etc, still have paper records despite computerizing them would save a ton of time and manpower.

Jack in the Box is the only fast food place that really messes with self ordering machines.   You see them pop up in new gas stations with sandwhich shops but the old ones don't really get upgraded.

GM factories very rarely ever update their machinary... hell the GM plant i worked at STILL uses button presses for half the shop despite automatic presses have been standard for 20+ years.  


 

At the risk of falling into the anecdotal evidence trap, the store i'm working at is one of the busiest and most profitable for the company across the board, and yet my boss is currently grappling with corporate who keeps trying to tighten the purse strings on wage allowances for the store (so not cutting jobs, but cutting hours). I think it's just a perpetual war.


We're talking about the low end of the market, remember. Further into "white collar job" territory, there are a lot of jobs that a company can "create" for the right person (which is why networking is so important), but the point being that companies' demands for work are far more flexible the higher up the ladder you go. Lower down, it's more fixed in that regard.



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SlayerRondo said:
Mr Puggsly said:
the2real4mafol said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Its not about luck, its about working hard and developing skills.

That's how you get out of poverty and get opportunities.

What about the hard working that remain poor? By your logic, if everyone worked hard there would be no poverty. Unfortunately, the world don't work like that otherwise workers in the 3rd world countries would be among the richest in the world. They are not because of exploitation and hoarding of wealth. Admittedly, there are lazy people but most working people (actual employed people) aren't 

Most people who work hard and ramain poor have probably made bad decisions.

For example, someone with no skills beyond a low paying job shouldn't attempt to start a family as single parent. However, we see it happen time and time again. That's where most poverty starts.

I know someone who has three kids and was working dead end jobs. The father of the children also avoided paying child support. So she went back to school, became a nurse, and now lives a comfortable life. That's how you get out of poverty, get some god damn skills.

I find it sadly depressing that people are unwilling to admit that some people should not start a family because they simply cant support them. Jobs in the fast food industry are not and will not ever be capable of supporting a family.

And yet many of the people who talk about how the poor shouldn't choose to start families will scream bloody murder when a poor woman goes to get an abortion, or try to get the government to pay for her contraceptives.

Huh.



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Universal health care system funded by taxation has worked successfully in Europe and other nations around the world over the last 50 years. The USA government should have adopted Universal health care system paid by taxation decades ago. The US government forcing most Americans to buy expensive private health insurance is wrong.



Mr Khan said:
SlayerRondo said:

I find it sadly depressing that people are unwilling to admit that some people should not start a family because they simply cant support them. Jobs in the fast food industry are not and will not ever be capable of supporting a family.

And yet many of the people who talk about how the poor shouldn't choose to start families will scream bloody murder when a poor woman goes to get an abortion, or try to get the government to pay for her contraceptives.

Huh.

If women feel the cost of birth control or condoms is too much of a burden, perhaps they should try passing the cost of contraception to the guys fucking them and not tax payers.

I would prefer that over looking for free handouts.

A lady asked me to help with her birth control paymens. I was fine with that, given a potential pregnancy is my responibility too.



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Cheapest plan for me is $185/mo after tax break.
I'll eat the $95 for the first year. Obama can suck it.



Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
thranx said:
Mr Khan said:
 

 

 


 

 

 

At the risk of falling into the anecdotal evidence trap, the store i'm working at is one of the busiest and most profitable for the company across the board, and yet my boss is currently grappling with corporate who keeps trying to tighten the purse strings on wage allowances for the store (so not cutting jobs, but cutting hours). I think it's just a perpetual war.


We're talking about the low end of the market, remember. Further into "white collar job" territory, there are a lot of jobs that a company can "create" for the right person (which is why networking is so important), but the point being that companies' demands for work are far more flexible the higher up the ladder you go. Lower down, it's more fixed in that regard.

Well sure.... Obamacare is causing a lot of employers to reduce workforce.  

That's one of those events that reduces hours.

All you need is 30 hours a week to be considered full time under the law.



SlayerRondo said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Most people who work hard and ramain poor have probably made bad decisions.

For example, someone with no skills beyond a low paying job shouldn't attempt to start a family as single parent. However, we see it happen time and time again. That's where most poverty starts.

I know someone who has three kids and was working dead end jobs. The father of the children also avoided paying child support. So she went back to school, became a nurse, and now lives a comfortable life. That's how you get out of poverty, get some god damn skills.

I find it sadly depressing that people are unwilling to admit that some people should not start a family because they simply cant support them. Jobs in the fast food industry are not and will not ever be capable of supporting a family.

Most people shouldn't be starting families and you see happening in front of you. People are starting much later because they realize was the financial consequences of having children. My wife really wants to have children, but she knows we need to wait till we're better equipped to handle children. Personal responsibility goes a long way.



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the2real4mafol said:

Easy enough if higher education wasn't so expensive. Even people come out of college and university but still find it hard to get jobs. Further education is a good way to do better in your career but with the amount it costs, you better work hard to get there. (and if you're poor in the first place, how are you supposed to pay to do more education? Not everyone gets government help) If the economy ever improves, you might get something out there. 

Also, i have a problem with your cause of poverty. What if these people could afford to have kids and further down the line lost their work or lost a partner or something like that? That would be beyond their own control

A semester at a community college costs about $1,000 for a full-time student in most counties (varying based on average income.) With a loan, that is about $4,000 of principle debt for two years. For most, there are state and federal grants which will cover the entire expense. There is not a single person in the United States who can't go to college of some sort with the current system. There is private aid as well (I go to a top private school, and $42,000/$60,000 cost of attendence is covered privately, the rest is covered by loans.) 



The biggest issue with minimum wage is that no employer is going to buy labor that isn't worth that minimum. Meaning that the unskilled go unemployed, and the moderately skilled are in lower-paying jobs than what they'd otherwise have in a market without the price-floor. This is economics 101.