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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - After seeing Bayonetta 2 and 'X' in action today...

 

The PS4's power seems...

Better, but not THAT much better anymore... 241 15.42%
 
Are you crazy?! The PS4 is GOD! 349 22.33%
 
The Wii U is clearly unde... 741 47.41%
 
The PS4 is selling better... 36 2.30%
 
I think I'll be buying a... 191 12.22%
 
Total:1,558
SubiyaCryolite on 16 February 2014
bigtakilla said:
SubiyaCryolite said:
bigtakilla said:
SubiyaCryolite said:
bigtakilla said:
oniyide said:
nothing released on WIi U yet gives me the "wow this couldnt be done on last gen consoles" feel. Nothig 3d world included. THATS why people have been calling it underpowered its a small leap over systems that have been out for 6-7 years.


Haters usually tell themselves that. In fact, the point of this thread is saying that the Wii U is capable of creating graphics similar to PS4/XBONE. So does that mean all these systems are last gen or underpowered? Lol, that logic is just flawed. 

"The PS3 and 360 are capable of producing graphics similar to the PS4 and X1. The gap isn't that big" said no one ever

The Wii U can though, so what's your point?


A year later and the Wii U is still competing with the visuals and performance of the 360 and PS3, thats my point.

Its only real advantage is its RAM, which will add to scale but wont affect visuals in the slightest bar textures. RAM doesnt allow it to handle complex geometry. RAM wont allow it to push 1080p. RAM wont allow it to run advanced lighting. RAM wont allow it to run advanced shaders. RAM wont allow it to render thousands of particles on screen at a smooth framerate. Thats all bound to the GPU.  As mentioned above its GPUs raw throughput is in the same league as the playstation 3 and 360, even if you pick the 352 gflops.

DigitalFoundry accurately predicted that the Wii Us GPU is equivalent to a 4650HD in PC terms. This explains NIntendos own games being 720p60 rather than 900p60 or 1080p60. This explains 3rd party games sticking to 720p30. The 4770 and 4850 are out of the question otherwise every 7th gen port would be 60fps easily. Nintendo could hit 900p60 easily with that power. The WiiU simply does not have it.

Nintendoland, 3D World, NSBU and DKTF are all 720p60. Pikmin 3 is 720p30. WWHD is 1080p30 a game with high res textures (hello RAM) and bloom. PS2 HD remakes by inhouse studios on the PS3 managed to be 1080p, 60FPS with bloom, alpha, AA, VSYNC and Bokeh DOF (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-how-konami-remade-zoe-hd-remaster). Im detecting a pattern here. What more proof do you need?

Theres a huge difference between a 4650(WiiU) and the 7790(X1) and 7870(PS4). Theres just no way of spinning it. The systems graphics and performance will be in a completely different leauge. DirectX11 and GPGPU extentions wont magically increase its performance by a factor of two or anything, the 360 GPU supported tesselation for example but it was still bound by its base power. 

CPU intensive games or scenes with lots of NPCs or action on the screen cause its framerate to plummet in most games, its CPU is on par if not slightly worse than the 7th gen. At least 3 different high profile developers have said this on the record.

Ive watched the 600MB 60fps Bayonetta 2 video. It has great quality, and shows the games excellent framerate and scale. However, it has standard 7th gen textures and geometry. No antialiasing to speak of and based on the jaggies I think another so called 1080p Wii U game will end up being 720p. The flashback from Bayo 1 in the begining of the trailer doesnt look out of place in the slightest, like seriously.

How people can claim that a machine so close to the 7th gen can produce visuals similar to the X1 and PS4 is beyond me. If you truly believe that then the same holds true for the PS3 and 360, since they are in the same league afterall. It cant be true for the U and not be true for the 7th gen HD twins. Of course no one says that about the 7th gen HD twins but people continue to insist with the Wii U, it doesnt make sense.

PS4 and XBone also do not run most games at 1080p native with a solid 60fps. There are the usual suspects (forza and gt) but bigger, more extensive games run at 30fps (Kill Zone, Tomb Raider Definitive) are broken (Battlefield) or only use 60fps on some modes (Ghosts). Also, XBone only usually renders at 900p.

Tomb Raider DR runs at 60fps on the PS4. Battlefield 4s bugs dont take away from 60fps albeit at 900p, however its incredibly large maps and destructibility + 64 players in online easily make up for that. The 60fps fighters like Tekken, Street Fighter, Dead or Alive and Soul Calibur are yet to appear, as are the racers. Despite being 720p60 Killer Instinct still pushes effects, particles and textures simply not possible on the WiiU.

The best looking games last and this gen will be 30fps just because of the extra effects devs put in. 1080p requires huge resources once you add complex shaders and lighting as the games youve mentioned do. Nintendos only semi photorealistic game on the WiiU is Pikmin 3, also 30fps despite being a Wii game originally. That said even last gen 720p60fps games are in the same visual ball park as the Wii U. 

You talk about simple textures and geometry, but they are still noticeaby better in Bayo 2.

No, they arent. Below are native 720p60 games on the 7th gen. Nothing in the Bayonetta 2 trailer, whether near or far, has textures or geometry or lighting far above what is on display below. Bayonetta doesnt knock any of these out of the park visually or performance wise, only winning in scale like I said.

Compare this to any close up of Bayonettas or any other characters face in the trailer


Compare this to her talking to the Kid in the fountain

Compare this to her fighting the sage in the water arena

And screeens from platinums own blog, straight from the trailer. I dont want to use captures from VLC because of compression despite the videos quality. Again, scale is the only obvious step up,  everything else is standard 7th gen fare. These screens are convenietly missing all the aliasing clearly visible in the trailer however, not as sharp either suggesting some kind of post process smoothing. We dont have any direct framebuffer shots yet.


There is also room for vast improvement on performance with frame rates dipping into the 30's on 360, and into the 20's on PS3. If The Wonderful 101 is anything to go by, the frame rate for that was usually 60, with some minor flickers to 58 though I did hear near the end of the game the frame rate does dip to the low 50's.

Not sure what you mean here? Perhaps the PS3 struggles more often, however the 360 always maintains its target framerate fairly well in its games. It still beats both the PS3 and the U in most multiplats even today.

The Wii U is also known for rarely if ever screan tearing, which was rampant on Bayo 1 on both systems. Yet again there was rarely any on The Wonderful 101. (I'm using 101 as the obvious benchmark due to it being made by the same dev and same genre.) 

Thats true, but how does that "lower the gap" with the PS4 and X1? Screen tearing alone isnt good enough when everything else is standard 7th gen tech. The Wii U still operates at the same resolution and framerate as the 7th gen, screen tearing or not.

Just think, if The Wonderful 101 performed as well as it did for Wii U, then how well will Bayo 2 perform? They got all of their best developers working on that while TW101 had a smaller team dedicated to it, Nintendo reps are also working with the dev team of Bayo 2 and they've gotten their 1st party games at 60fps with absolutely no drops whatsoever. And we already know that Nintendo isn't giving them any slack on gameplay.

I think you're looking at this from a strictly what do I see on screen perspective, (which the visuals are improved, I would say by a decent amount even, but opinions vary) when in reality the improvements are implemented on the gamers holy trinity (gameplay,graphics, and performance). This is gonna be THE hack and slash game of 2014, and I'm positive it will win at least it's best of genre come GOTY time, no doubt about it.

It definately will be the best hack n slash game of 2014, probably one of the best games of 2014 overall. Howevver, the issue remains that its still within reach of the 7th gen capabilities. Thus claiming that its not far behind the X1 and PS4 seems very odd to me. Might as well say the same about the 7th gen HD twins





I predict that the Wii U will sell a total of 18 million units in its lifetime. 

The NX will be a 900p machine

Around the Network
SubiyaCryolite on 16 February 2014
bigtakilla said:
SubiyaCryolite said:
bigtakilla said:
SubiyaCryolite said:
bigtakilla said:
oniyide said:
nothing released on WIi U yet gives me the "wow this couldnt be done on last gen consoles" feel. Nothig 3d world included. THATS why people have been calling it underpowered its a small leap over systems that have been out for 6-7 years.


Haters usually tell themselves that. In fact, the point of this thread is saying that the Wii U is capable of creating graphics similar to PS4/XBONE. So does that mean all these systems are last gen or underpowered? Lol, that logic is just flawed. 

"The PS3 and 360 are capable of producing graphics similar to the PS4 and X1. The gap isn't that big" said no one ever

The Wii U can though, so what's your point?


A year later and the Wii U is still competing with the visuals and performance of the 360 and PS3, thats my point.

Its only real advantage is its RAM, which will add to scale but wont affect visuals in the slightest bar textures. RAM doesnt allow it to handle complex geometry. RAM wont allow it to push 1080p. RAM wont allow it to run advanced lighting. RAM wont allow it to run advanced shaders. RAM wont allow it to render thousands of particles on screen at a smooth framerate. Thats all bound to the GPU.  As mentioned above its GPUs raw throughput is in the same league as the playstation 3 and 360, even if you pick the 352 gflops.

DigitalFoundry accurately predicted that the Wii Us GPU is equivalent to a 4650HD in PC terms. This explains NIntendos own games being 720p60 rather than 900p60 or 1080p60. This explains 3rd party games sticking to 720p30. The 4770 and 4850 are out of the question otherwise every 7th gen port would be 60fps easily. Nintendo could hit 900p60 easily with that power. The WiiU simply does not have it.

Nintendoland, 3D World, NSBU and DKTF are all 720p60. Pikmin 3 is 720p30. WWHD is 1080p30 a game with high res textures (hello RAM) and bloom. PS2 HD remakes by inhouse studios on the PS3 managed to be 1080p, 60FPS with bloom, alpha, AA, VSYNC and Bokeh DOF (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-how-konami-remade-zoe-hd-remaster). Im detecting a pattern here. What more proof do you need?

Theres a huge difference between a 4650(WiiU) and the 7790(X1) and 7870(PS4). Theres just no way of spinning it. The systems graphics and performance will be in a completely different leauge. DirectX11 and GPGPU extentions wont magically increase its performance by a factor of two or anything, the 360 GPU supported tesselation for example but it was still bound by its base power. 

CPU intensive games or scenes with lots of NPCs or action on the screen cause its framerate to plummet in most games, its CPU is on par if not slightly worse than the 7th gen. At least 3 different high profile developers have said this on the record.

Ive watched the 600MB 60fps Bayonetta 2 video. It has great quality, and shows the games excellent framerate and scale. However, it has standard 7th gen textures and geometry. No antialiasing to speak of and based on the jaggies I think another so called 1080p Wii U game will end up being 720p. The flashback from Bayo 1 in the begining of the trailer doesnt look out of place in the slightest, like seriously.

How people can claim that a machine so close to the 7th gen can produce visuals similar to the X1 and PS4 is beyond me. If you truly believe that then the same holds true for the PS3 and 360, since they are in the same league afterall. It cant be true for the U and not be true for the 7th gen HD twins. Of course no one says that about the 7th gen HD twins but people continue to insist with the Wii U, it doesnt make sense.

Also, Zone Of Enders, that's your graphical powerhouse game you want Bayo 2 to best. Lol. Talk about simple geometry. Squares and triangles AT 1080p! (Not even a solid 60fps.) 

For examples of a real solid 1080p 60fps game I advise you to see Rayman Legends. (though it is 2d, it's still much more visually pleasing than ZOE, and has a solid frame rate.)

For a solid 60 fps you can also see Super Mario 3D World. 



Im comparing that to Windwaker HD which is 30fps and 1080p. To show that even in HD remasters of 6th gen games the Wii U cant pull away from PS3 levels of performance. Wind waker added bloom and high res textures. ZOE pulled off 60fps with AA, fancy DOF and lots of alpha :) 

Windwaker and ZOE are somewhat comparable in art and technological stress. Ocean vs flying around wide open areas for example. Semi cartoony. 



I predict that the Wii U will sell a total of 18 million units in its lifetime. 

The NX will be a 900p machine

Darc Requiem on 16 February 2014

What did someone actually compare an action game that features multiple enemies on screen to a 1v1 fighting game?



Cheebee on 16 February 2014
Darc Requiem said:
What did someone actually compare an action game that features multiple enemies on screen to a 1v1 fighting game?

Yes, because cherrypicking.   -_-



Nintendo Network ID: Cheebee   3DS Code: 2320 - 6113 - 9046

 

SubiyaCryolite on 16 February 2014
Darc Requiem said:
What did someone actually compare an action game that features multiple enemies on screen to a 1v1 fighting game?


You can leave out the fighting games if you want. I was trying to comare like for like scenes

 

  • Facial closups
  • The environment when she talks to the kid
  • Her fighting the sage 1 on 1.

 

Let me replace that with a DMC4 if you want. I could find a capture of Nero facing 5 or more demos at once though.

That said care to deny that the geometry, textures and lighting is in the exact same league?



I predict that the Wii U will sell a total of 18 million units in its lifetime. 

The NX will be a 900p machine

Around the Network
Darc Requiem on 16 February 2014
SubiyaCryolite said:
Darc Requiem said:
What did someone actually compare an action game that features multiple enemies on screen to a 1v1 fighting game?


You can leave out the fighting games if you want. I was trying to comare like for like scenes

 

  • Facial closups
  • The environment when she talks to the kid
  • Her fighting the sage 1 on 1.

 

Let me replace that with a DMC4 if you want. That said care to deny that the geometry, textures and lighting is in the exact same league?

It enhances our argument to leave the fighting games out. Whenever you are doing a comparison argument, unless you are comparing like games, it's always wise to leave out 1v1 fighting games and racing games. It will diminish your point.



bigtakilla on 16 February 2014
SubiyaCryolite said:
Darc Requiem said:
What did someone actually compare an action game that features multiple enemies on screen to a 1v1 fighting game?


You can leave out the fighting games if you want. I was trying to comare like for like scenes

 

  • Facial closups
  • The environment when she talks to the kid
  • Her fighting the sage 1 on 1.

 

Let me replace that with a DMC4 if you want. That said care to deny that the geometry, textures and lighting is in the exact same league?

Okay, I will. DmC 720p 30fps. Bayonetta 2 1080p 60fps. Lol, yet again you are judging everything with what you see with your eyes from screen shots. The actual difference is much bigger. 

And the fighting games, yeah let's just not get into that. 

Forgot, as of the ps3 20 fps thing and 360 30fps thing, go to google and type in bayonetta ps3 vs 360 performance and watch the digtal foundry. You'll see what I'm talking about.



hinch on 16 February 2014
bigtakilla said:
SubiyaCryolite said:
Darc Requiem said:
What did someone actually compare an action game that features multiple enemies on screen to a 1v1 fighting game?


You can leave out the fighting games if you want. I was trying to comare like for like scenes

 

  • Facial closups
  • The environment when she talks to the kid
  • Her fighting the sage 1 on 1.

 

Let me replace that with a DMC4 if you want. That said care to deny that the geometry, textures and lighting is in the exact same league?

Okay, I will. DmC 720p 30fps. Bayonetta 2 1080p 60fps. Lol, yet again you are judging everything with what you see with your eyes from screen shots. The actual difference is much bigger. 

And the fighting games, yeah let's just not get into that. 

If that direct feed video is anything to come by. Bayonetta 2 is running at 720p/60fps. Not sure where that 1080p comes from.



SubiyaCryolite on 16 February 2014
Darc Requiem said:
SubiyaCryolite said:
Darc Requiem said:
What did someone actually compare an action game that features multiple enemies on screen to a 1v1 fighting game?


You can leave out the fighting games if you want. I was trying to comare like for like scenes

 

  • Facial closups
  • The environment when she talks to the kid
  • Her fighting the sage 1 on 1.

 

Let me replace that with a DMC4 if you want. That said care to deny that the geometry, textures and lighting is in the exact same league?

It enhances our argument to leave the fighting games out. Whenever you are doing a comparison argument, unless you are comparing like games, it's always wise to leave out 1v1 fighting games and racing games. It will diminish your point.

Updated, now answer " care to deny that the geometry, textures and lighting is in the exact same league?"



I predict that the Wii U will sell a total of 18 million units in its lifetime. 

The NX will be a 900p machine

Kane1389 on 16 February 2014

LOL, it doesnt even look better than GOW3, a 2010 PS3 game