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Evidence for the existence of God

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There's only one clear answer. God is a child with an ant farm and a magnifying glass. If you don't build your tunnels properly, you will be pulled from the herd and forthwith burned to a crisp. Oh, sorry, You will just be pulled from the herd and ignored.



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I thought I’d go back to the original points from OooSnap. Sorry if this is opening up debates that have been done and finished, and I’m sure I’ll be repeating stuff already pointed out, but I had some time to waste. Feel free to ignore.

1. The Existence of the DNA CODE

A lot of emphasis here seems to be put on the word ‘code’. It’s not important though. DNA’s rarely described as a code anyway (more often a sequence – of which there are examples naturally occurring in nature). Regardless, the fact remains, that we don’t know how life, or DNA, began. Once a single self replicating cell emerged, we know how that could have developed into the range of life we now find on Earth, but there are still gaps in our understanding as to how life originated. I’ve actually given you a better point here than you started with.

2. The Existence of Objective Moral Standards

There aren’t universal moral standards, and there’s no evidence proving objective moral standards. Different cultures develop different moral assumptions. OooSnaps’ point seems to be little more than “Extreme moral relativism is philosophically absurd”. That’s not evidence for God.

3. The Existence of Rationality

Humans’ rationality is limited though. Often clearly limited by our evolutionary origins.

There are evolutionary reasons it was useful for people to grow up trusting those who looked similar to themselves over those who looked different. Did God want us to be racists?

The evolved tendency of men to fear overt female sexuality is also mirrored in many religious texts, but I’m not sure that can be seen as evidence God created man, so much as man created God.

The argument seems to be ‘it would be nice if we could rely on our rationality’ rather than ‘our rationality can be shown to be so pure, it could not have evolved’. Wishful thinking is not evidence.

4. The Existence of Consciousess/Mind

There are so many problems in this part of the post, I can barely bring myself to go into it.

Regardless, there’s a lot of debate over the nature of consciousness, and there has been throughout history. Advances in neurology have given rather a boost to materialists recently, but that seems to be a conclusion most people are emotionally wary of. Regardless, rejecting materialism does not necessarily lead any evidence in favour of God.

The idea that the subjective nature of consciousness provides proof for God is absurd too. Anyway, materialists would be quite happy arguing that the human brain is completely capable of providing all of the simulations we see as part of consciousness. There’s certainly not any evidence against the materialist position, so even if a rejection of materialism could be seen as evidence for God, there’s no evidence for that.

The idea that, because knowing about a bat’s brain isn’t the same as being a bat, is any evidence in favour of God, is absurd.

“If our minds are simply physical states, then we are not free”: This is an argument in support of an omnipotent God?

I’m sure I could tidy my points up here, but this is a complicated topic I’m not well read in, and Ooosnap’s starting post was so weak, I don’t feel it needs much to demolish it.

5. The Existence of the Universe

Science will probably never be able to show what caused the big bang. There may be different theories, but it’s probably impossible to gather the required evidence to know what the cause was.]

Just for fun:
a. Everything which has a beginning has a cause.
b. The universe has a beginning.
c. Therefore the universe has a cause.
d. therefore the cause has a cause.
e. therefore that cause must have a cause.
f. and the last one too.
g. I think we need another cause in here.
h. when will the ever end!!!

See the problem?

6. The Universe is fine-tuned delicately

Indeed. We do not know how these constants were tuned, or if it’s even possible for them to have been anything other than what they are. Given that it would be impossible for us to ever say “Well, the cosmological constants appear to make life impossible, guess there’s no God after all guys”, it seems rather one sided to insist this provides evidence for the existence of God.


Arguments 1 5 and 6 are the strongest here (2 and 3 totally pathetic, and 4 totally pathetic in its current form). However, they’re nothing more than gaps in current scientific understanding. Religious followers have always used such gaps to claim evidence of God, but when these gaps are closed, they don’t then abandon there religious claims, but rather, go on to try to find other, smaller gaps. If we found evidence supporting a scientific explanation for the origins of DNA, would Ooosnap see that as proof that belief in a God is irrational? I doubt it.

None of this is proof of the existence of a God. At most it highlights some areas where there’s little evidence with which to draw scientific conclusions. Just because scientific conclusions aren’t currently available, doesn’t serve to provide evidence for super-natural conclusions.



If there are any gods, I am more inclined to believe the roman and greeks, where there are multiple gods who are all jealous, spitefull, and imperfect. None all knowing and none all powerful. That makes a whole of a lot more sense than a christian god (though not more than a naturalistic view of life)



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Andir said:
Kasz216 said:
CrashMan said:
Grey Acumen said:
catprog said:
Grey Acumen said:

2) God proves beyond your ability to deny that he exists. You now no longer have any choice but to believe that he exists. You've given up your free will.

You could still believe in something less likely (I.e you were hyponised you to see what is described).

Therefore free will is mantained.

Please read properly

 


There is always those who believe what is beyond the ability of a rational person to deny. There is still to this day a group of strict biblical interpretests called the flat earth society that believe, since the bible says jesus ascended to heaven, there must be an absolute up and an absolute down, and therefore the earth is flat. All those telling you its round are lying or lack all faith, and all effects that seem to show you that the earth is round with your senses are optical illusions.

There is always a choice to deny, but if truely knowing something to be true takes away free will we are all screwed. Do you exist? Well yes I KNOW I have to exist because I am experiencing this right now (though I am not sure i completely agree with that proof either.) Any way, you no longer have a choice to believe that you exist so therefore you don't have free will. Utter nonsense.


Do you really know you exist? Couldn't you just as eaisly be a computer simulation? Some character in a computer simulated world programmed for research or entertainment? Plenty of people actually do believe this. That it's highly likely they don't really exist and are a computer simulation.

The theory being that eventually we would become smart enough to create computers that can re-create human brains, and after that entire worlds, and even then universes.

If this did happen, there would be a crapload of such computers, and only one "real" reality. Therefore mathematically, scientifically and logically there is very high chance we are all really just fake computer programs living inside a computer and that we don't really exist.


Let me run with this idea. We are a simulation based off a real world. (ie: The Matrix...whatever) There is a creator, a programmer who acheived the ability to control brain function and thought. We are all stuck in a machine... praising this creator, a false god.. since in this reality, the programmer could also be in a machine and have their own pre-proposed "God." It could go on indefinately. So how can it be so certain that Earth's God is THE God? We have no proof to state otherwise and we have no proof to support it, except a book written many thousands of years ago and translated by humans.

Every play telephone? It's where you whisper something in one person's ear, let them whisper what they heard in someone else's ear and it continues around the room. Invariably what comes out the other end is all messed up and incorrect, but everyone in that line believes it is the true meaning because that is what they were told, even though they interpreted it in their own way. This is what the Bible is to me. A game of telephone. I believe it started out as a moral story to guide a village. To give them rules to live by and stories to draw experience from. It was used, not just to control, but as a guide to the type of community some wise man once wanted. He never imagined that some of those children who heard the tale would pass it on to their children or carry it to the next town and tell the stories, but they did. Through the many campfire stories of this tale it became twisted by people into a religion. Eventually someone wrote it down and called it the Bible.

So now, I have this belief. Is it right, or is it wrong? Many here would say I'm wrong, but do you have proof? Do I have proof that it was that way? I can say, this wise man only wanted the best for his village. He wanted people to love each other and maintain civility. Anyone wishing to not accept this ruling was free to go to the next town and not be loved. Of course, they took this message with them, probably twisted it and told it the way that they seemed fit. Does this sound familiar? Sure. I just took all your beliefs of God and placated them onto an old wise man just looking to be appreciated and loved. Somehow being the creator of the story that many people inherited, turned into him being the creator... of the human race.

Some of you would think this makes me a child, or a mental deficient... but does it really? Is it hard to accept that matter has existed for millenia? If there was a creator of this material, is it so hard to accept that that person is no longer with us? I give some of you credit for coming up with the idea that you will be loved after death for leading a good life. It keeps people in line. But is it the truth?

 

You are close, but you missed gthe point. Also you fail in the fact that you think I am solely argueing for the Christian god. When I am in fact argueing that a god logically exists.

Basically it is logical to assume we are actually very close to havingthe ability to be able to recreate the universe and the people in it... or even more eaisly create different universes with sentient people.

If we did it basically would mean we would make several of these worlds, even if it was deemed "illegal" it's likely several of these worlds would be created as the research value along is amazing. Though if not illegal there would be thousands of reasons for this... even interactive videogames.

So. It is extremely likely that we are infact computer simulations. Would you not say? The odds on it are staggeringly high unless you believe in something like god stopping people from creating their own computer generated universes. (which you obviously don't.)

As such, the person who created this universe is in fact god. He created this universe out of virtual nothingness. How would he not be god. There is no "fake" about it. He created the universe and he could do whatever he wanted with it. Even have computer generated "afterlifes" to save the "souls" of people who fit his criteria. Or even ones that punish ones he didn't like.

Logically even if "Reality Prime" has no god. It's infinitly likely that our reality does. So it seems downright silly to say "There is no god". At best all you can say is "We don't know who he is."

Sure he could just be some future guy.  Or even on of us working through a virtual avatar or any number of other things, even a guy who has never touched this program once.  However, there would be a god.  The guy who created everything. 



I never argued that A god can't logically exist, just that a CHRISTIAN (and Jewish/muslim) god can't exist.



I am a Gauntlet Adventurer.

I strive to improve my living conditions by hoarding gold, food, and sometimes keys and potions. I love adventure, fighting, and particularly winning - especially when there's a prize at stake. I occasionally get lost inside buildings and can't find the exit. I need food badly. What Video Game Character Are You?

Mega Man 9 Challenges: 74%

Waltz Tango Jitterbug Bust a move Headbanging
Bunny Hop Mr. Trigger Happy Double Trouble Mr. Perfect Invincible
Almost Invincible No Coffee Break Air Shoes Mega Diet Encore
Peacekeeper Conservationist Farewell To Arms Gamer's Day Daily Dose
Whomp Wiley! Truly Addicted! Truly Hardcore! Conqueror Vanquisher
Destroyer World Warrior Trusty Sidearm Pack Rat Valued Customer
Shop A Holic Last Man Standing Survivor Hard Rock Heavy Metal
Speed Metal Fantastic 9 Fully Unloaded Blue Bomber Eco Fighter
Marathon Fight Quick Draw G Quick Draw C Quick Draw S Quick Draw H
Quick Draw J Quick Draw P Quick Draw T Quick Draw M Quick Draw X
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"Basically it is logical to assume we are actually very close to havingthe ability to be able to recreate the universe and the people in it... or even more eaisly create different universes with sentient people."

?

I think you meant 'nuts' not 'logical'.



Maybe life is just as real no mutter if you are in the first one or in a computer simulated version of life.

The rules for what real life is maybe be a lot different then what we would normaly expect especialy in a situation you just described.



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While I reject your logic that God exists because the DNA code, I do believe there is a God. WE made up the DNA code. WE gave it a name and made sense of the pattern that exists there. God just does stuff and leaves us to make sense of it.



godf said:
"Basically it is logical to assume we are actually very close to havingthe ability to be able to recreate the universe and the people in it... or even more eaisly create different universes with sentient people."

?

I think you meant 'nuts' not 'logical'.

 You can't deny that at some point in the future we could create a computer program like The Sims but with the people having a conscience rather than you controlling them. 

Therefore it is possible that a more technologicaly advanced race than the Human race created the universe we live in. I do not consider the creator of the computer program a God, because there is nothing supernatural about it.



CrashMan said:
I never argued that A god can't logically exist, just that a CHRISTIAN (and Jewish/muslim) god can't exist.


So you agree, while you think the christian god doesn't exist... (or atlest isn't just like he is in the bible.) 

the odds are such where it is almost a mathmatic certaintiy that there is in fact a god of some kind for our universe.