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Forums - General Discussion - So an Abortion limiting bill passed in my state, Texas

-CraZed- said:
marley said:
-CraZed- said:
Ssliasil said:
Fuckin Texas, always ass backwards.

So it's ass backwards to want to protect the life of an unborn baby is it? It's ass backwards to require that providers who perform these procedures should have some sort of back up plan by having admitting privilidges at a medical center within a close proximity should an abortion procedure have complications?

Yeah so ass backwards... It's why even during the most turbulent of economical times Texas has continued to grow and thrive as a state cause they are so ass backwards there... Not saying the state or Texans are perfect but ass backwards?

I think not.

 

Social policy =/= economic policy.

The OP made a blanket statement.... My response wasn't that social policy necessarily equals social policy however the case can be made that one affects the other, but that the state of Texas is not just simply ass backwards because they chose not to have a policy with which that person agrees.


He was clearly talking about social policy (and more than likely referring to more than just this one social policy).  Economic growth does not equate a positive social policy.  See China.

I'm not taking a side between you and the OP.  I'm just pointing out a fallacy. 



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Screamapillar said:
Mr Khan said:
The 20 weeks thing is neither here nor there. What it affects is in these onerous requirements shutting down clinics that a lot of women use for a broad array of health services.

It so often seems like prenatal life is the only life the pro-lifers give a damn about, given their opposition to funding for any health services for the living.


Is it right for us to be taxed to pay for others' health services?  I would say it is not. 

I wouldn't even be opposed to states running these so-called health clinics.  Although we know that they are by and large abortion clinics.  I just don't think the federal government has any business getting involved and taking care of people in this way.

If we as a society decide that we want state-run health clinics, then so be it (even though I personally don't see why I should be taxed to pay for it if I or my family doesn't use it), but it should be done on a state level, not on a federal level.  Let the states deal with their health services as they choose, and let the pro-life states limit abortion services, and the free-wheeling liberal states have as many abortions as they want. 

What's wrong with us all chipping in some money/ taxes to have socialised healthcare? Because of the inequality caused by capitalism, we NEED socialised healthcare. It is actually better as the health of the poor is much improved and surely if we are all healthier, the economy will benefit from fewer sick days.

I think your opinion is very backward and actually quite selfish, for just one major reason. Just look at the current American healthcare system, 35 million people have no health insurance and therefore "can't afford to get ill" because it is dominated by private companies who only care about profit rather than people's health. The profit motive has no place in healthcare. Fortunately, a disease can't tell the difference between a rich and a poor person and so infects anyone. Are you telling you would yet someone who can't afford to pay potentially die unneccesarilly despite all the medicine that exists? That's just wrong. And to prove further that private healthcare isn't efficient, 18% of US GDP is spent on healthcare. Come to the UK, where we have the NHS and we only spend 9% of GDP on healthcare according to World Bank (that % is similar across other countries with socialised healthcare). It's cheaper to have socialised healthcare and it is also moral, everyone just needs to dip into too their pocket for the greater good. And to think you get a free and decent service in return for slightly higher taxes. I don't see the problem here. 



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thranx said:
the2real4mafol said:

Isn't this a very rare case? This women was extremely lucky to be born so early and survive. And i'm still pro-choice just because it's up to the women if she wants to keep her baby or not. I imagine most wouldn't abort but it should still be up to them. 

Finally, how can a state like Texas be against abortion but for the death penalty? How does that make any sense? 


It makes perfect sense. The death penalty is used after someone has been convicted of a serious crime, and more than likely also taken someone elses life. So the person had a chance to live, and a chance to live by the law of the land. They had choices they could make that could lead to the death penalty, or choices they could make that would lead to them living a happy life. They bear the responsibilty for their actions.

On the other hand a child still in the womb of it mother has not had the chance to make the wrong choices that may lead to a bad life. Rather it has had it decisons made ofr it. So it doesn't bear responisibilty for what it has not done. Instead a mother, may at will cease its life for now reason at all.

Now what confuses me is how people can say that women should be able to kill their babies because it is their bodies, but than think that the baby has no say in its treatment of its body. Where is the logic in that? Shouldn't the baby also be able to decide what happens with its body, and if its not shouldn't those decisions be made by someone who has the babies best interest at heart? I always have trouble understanding that logic, and reasoning.

For at least half of the pregnancy, the fetus (it's not a baby until it's born) wouldn't survive being born as it isn't developed enough to survive on it's own, so up until that point, it's up to the women who has to give birth to it. Which i guess is 5 or 6 months now (enough time to think about it by then). And how do we know what the fetus wants? it can only do basic communication like smiling and kicking. 

But my main problem with banning abortion is that it won't prevent abortion, making it illegal would just force it underground and could be a great way for gangs to make money alongside other activities they do, pushing up crime rates. 



Xbox One, PS4 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch will sell better than Wii U Lifetime Sales by Jan 1st 2018

Killing babies is wrong. It is selfish to abort your baby just cause you don't want to care for it. This is what is wrong with America. People are for the right to own guns and abort babies. While these issues may be supported by different sides they are morally wrong.



Love is whats most important.

 

Slimebeast said:

The 20 week limit was the best measure, since every humane person agrees that killing a child that old is wrong. Obviously the next step should be to lower it further.


And keep lowering it, and lowering it, and lowering it right?

Until its illegal to jack off.

Thats the kind of world i want to live in



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Etech7 said:
Killing babies is wrong. It is selfish to abort your baby just cause you don't want to care for it. This is what is wrong with America. People are for the right to own guns and abort babies. While these issues may be supported by different sides they are morally wrong.


The amount of children who spend the first 18 years of their life either in and out of foster homes or simply being left to their own devices because the parents cannot cope is huge.

There are 2 things which can be done to help this;

1) Give people the right to choose whether they wish to be parents

2) Increase the child care and support system



Current Game Machines: 3DS, Wii U, PC.

Currently Playing: X-Com(PC), Smash Bros(WiiU), Banner Saga(PC), Guild Wars 2(PC), Project X Zone(3DS), Luigis Mansion 2(3DS), DayZ(PC)

the2real4mafol said:
Screamapillar said:
Mr Khan said:
The 20 weeks thing is neither here nor there. What it affects is in these onerous requirements shutting down clinics that a lot of women use for a broad array of health services.

It so often seems like prenatal life is the only life the pro-lifers give a damn about, given their opposition to funding for any health services for the living.


Is it right for us to be taxed to pay for others' health services?  I would say it is not. 

I wouldn't even be opposed to states running these so-called health clinics.  Although we know that they are by and large abortion clinics.  I just don't think the federal government has any business getting involved and taking care of people in this way.

If we as a society decide that we want state-run health clinics, then so be it (even though I personally don't see why I should be taxed to pay for it if I or my family doesn't use it), but it should be done on a state level, not on a federal level.  Let the states deal with their health services as they choose, and let the pro-life states limit abortion services, and the free-wheeling liberal states have as many abortions as they want. 

What's wrong with us all chipping in some money/ taxes to have socialised healthcare? Because of the inequality caused by capitalism, we NEED socialised healthcare. It is actually better as the health of the poor is much improved and surely if we are all healthier, the economy will benefit from fewer sick days.

I think your opinion is very backward and actually quite selfish, for just one major reason. Just look at the current American healthcare system, 35 million people have no health insurance and therefore "can't afford to get ill" because it is dominated by private companies who only care about profit rather than people's health. The profit motive has no place in healthcare. Fortunately, a disease can't tell the difference between a rich and a poor person and so infects anyone. Are you telling you would yet someone who can't afford to pay potentially die unneccesarilly despite all the medicine that exists? That's just wrong. And to prove further that private healthcare isn't efficient, 18% of US GDP is spent on healthcare. Come to the UK, where we have the NHS and we only spend 9% of GDP on healthcare according to World Bank (that % is similar across other countries with socialised healthcare). It's cheaper to have socialised healthcare and it is also moral, everyone just needs to dip into too their pocket for the greater good. And to think you get a free and decent service in return for slightly higher taxes. I don't see the problem here. 

Yeah but in the UK, you guys have notoriously horrible healthcare, same with all socialized health systems.  Longer times to see an actual doctor, meaning when you do actually get to see one, it might be too late to do anything about it.  Doctors get paid less, therefore there are fewer people who want to become doctors, and thus fewer specialists, hence why so many people fly to the United States and a select few other countries to see specialists, i.e. the best in the world.

The problem is that we already all "chip in some money", it's called Medicare and Medicaid.  Both of which are terrible systems.  Doctors hate them, there's too much backlog, bureaucracy, and it's so wasteful that many Doctors either don't accept them or they retire early just so that they don't have to deal with them.  To the detriment of the people you claim should be helped.

So your forceful way of dealing with all of this is never going to work.  Europe is bankrupt, they have nothing but pyramided debt.  They have low birth rates among middle and high income people, many of which are even below the replacement rate.   Your continent is literally dying, and as we're already seeing in France and elsewhere, eventually your entire society is going to be overrun with Muslims.  Muslims, once there are enough of them to be in power in Europe, are not going to support your socialized systems, and they're not going to support women's rights or a welfare state.  So, you talk about me "being backward", well, look in the mirror.  Also, look at the demographics in France.  I would prefer that that not happen here in the US.

Not to mention that you cannot force someone to be charitable.  If we had a healthy economy, and there were actual jobs in the US, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, because there wouldn't be so many people who can't afford health insurance.  So no matter how hard you try, or how much you want it, you cannot legislate poor people into prosperity.  It doesn't work.  It has never worked, ever.  All of these socialized programs that progressives and conservaties love to throw around "energy independence", "education", "food stamps", the common theme you hear is that "Well, if we just increased funding, this would all be solved."  The problem is, every time funding is increased, it makes the problem even worse than it was before.

The best way to handle these types of problems, and it's in line with the original intent of the United States, is to give people as much freedom as possible.  I don't think the tyranny of the government being the central provider of services is going to turn out well.  Quite the opposite, in fact.



The Screamapillar is easily identified by its constant screaming—it even screams in its sleep. The Screamapillar is the favorite food of everything, is sexually attracted to fire, and needs constant reassurance or it will die.

Screamapillar said:
the2real4mafol said:

What's wrong with us all chipping in some money/ taxes to have socialised healthcare? Because of the inequality caused by capitalism, we NEED socialised healthcare. It is actually better as the health of the poor is much improved and surely if we are all healthier, the economy will benefit from fewer sick days.

I think your opinion is very backward and actually quite selfish, for just one major reason. Just look at the current American healthcare system, 35 million people have no health insurance and therefore "can't afford to get ill" because it is dominated by private companies who only care about profit rather than people's health. The profit motive has no place in healthcare. Fortunately, a disease can't tell the difference between a rich and a poor person and so infects anyone. Are you telling you would yet someone who can't afford to pay potentially die unneccesarilly despite all the medicine that exists? That's just wrong. And to prove further that private healthcare isn't efficient, 18% of US GDP is spent on healthcare. Come to the UK, where we have the NHS and we only spend 9% of GDP on healthcare according to World Bank (that % is similar across other countries with socialised healthcare). It's cheaper to have socialised healthcare and it is also moral, everyone just needs to dip into too their pocket for the greater good. And to think you get a free and decent service in return for slightly higher taxes. I don't see the problem here. 

Yeah but in the UK, you guys have notoriously horrible healthcare, same with all socialized health systems.  Longer times to see an actual doctor, meaning when you do actually get to see one, it might be too late to do anything about it.  Doctors get paid less, therefore there are fewer people who want to become doctors, and thus fewer specialists, hence why so many people fly to the United States and a select few other countries to see specialists, i.e. the best in the world.

The problem is that we already all "chip in some money", it's called Medicare and Medicaid.  Both of which are terrible systems.  Doctors hate them, there's too much backlog, bureaucracy, and it's so wasteful that many Doctors either don't accept them or they retire early just so that they don't have to deal with them.  To the detriment of the people you claim should be helped.

So your forceful way of dealing with all of this is never going to work.  Europe is bankrupt, they have nothing but pyramided debt.  They have low birth rates among middle and high income people, many of which are even below the replacement rate.   Your continent is literally dying, and as we're already seeing in France and elsewhere, eventually your entire society is going to be overrun with Muslims.  Muslims, once there are enough of them to be in power in Europe, are not going to support your socialized systems, and they're not going to support women's rights or a welfare state.  So, you talk about me "being backward", well, look in the mirror.  Also, look at the demographics in France.  I would prefer that that not happen here in the US.

Not to mention that you cannot force someone to be charitable.  If we had a healthy economy, and there were actual jobs in the US, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, because there wouldn't be so many people who can't afford health insurance.  So no matter how hard you try, or how much you want it, you cannot legislate poor people into prosperity.  It doesn't work.  It has never worked, ever.  All of these socialized programs that progressives and conservaties love to throw around "energy independence", "education", "food stamps", the common theme you hear is that "Well, if we just increased funding, this would all be solved."  The problem is, every time funding is increased, it makes the problem even worse than it was before.

The best way to handle these types of problems, and it's in line with the original intent of the United States, is to give people as much freedom as possible.  I don't think the tyranny of the government being the central provider of services is going to turn out well.  Quite the opposite, in fact.

(citation needed)



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:
Screamapillar said:
the2real4mafol said:
 

Yeah but in the UK, you guys have notoriously horrible healthcare, same with all socialized health systems.  Longer times to see an actual doctor, meaning when you do actually get to see one, it might be too late to do anything about it.  Doctors get paid less, therefore there are fewer people who want to become doctors, and thus fewer specialists, hence why so many people fly to the United States and a select few other countries to see specialists, i.e. the best in the world.

The problem is that we already all "chip in some money", it's called Medicare and Medicaid.  Both of which are terrible systems.  Doctors hate them, there's too much backlog, bureaucracy, and it's so wasteful that many Doctors either don't accept them or they retire early just so that they don't have to deal with them.  To the detriment of the people you claim should be helped.

So your forceful way of dealing with all of this is never going to work.  Europe is bankrupt, they have nothing but pyramided debt.  They have low birth rates among middle and high income people, many of which are even below the replacement rate.   Your continent is literally dying, and as we're already seeing in France and elsewhere, eventually your entire society is going to be overrun with Muslims.  Muslims, once there are enough of them to be in power in Europe, are not going to support your socialized systems, and they're not going to support women's rights or a welfare state.  So, you talk about me "being backward", well, look in the mirror.  Also, look at the demographics in France.  I would prefer that that not happen here in the US.

Not to mention that you cannot force someone to be charitable.  If we had a healthy economy, and there were actual jobs in the US, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, because there wouldn't be so many people who can't afford health insurance.  So no matter how hard you try, or how much you want it, you cannot legislate poor people into prosperity.  It doesn't work.  It has never worked, ever.  All of these socialized programs that progressives and conservaties love to throw around "energy independence", "education", "food stamps", the common theme you hear is that "Well, if we just increased funding, this would all be solved."  The problem is, every time funding is increased, it makes the problem even worse than it was before.

The best way to handle these types of problems, and it's in line with the original intent of the United States, is to give people as much freedom as possible.  I don't think the tyranny of the government being the central provider of services is going to turn out well.  Quite the opposite, in fact.

(citation needed)

For my hypothesis about France and the changing demographics in Europe?  Do what I did... Google.



The Screamapillar is easily identified by its constant screaming—it even screams in its sleep. The Screamapillar is the favorite food of everything, is sexually attracted to fire, and needs constant reassurance or it will die.

Screamapillar said:
Mr Khan said:

(citation needed)

For my hypothesis about France and the changing demographics in Europe?  Do what I did... Google.

The birth-rate scare i tend to find a conservative boondoggle more than anything. Europe will transform the Muslim immigrants long before they have a chance at meaningfully transforming Europe, whatever Right-White alarmists may say on the matter. Even in the span of a generation, values radically change, so even if first-gen Muslim immigrants have no interest in assimilating with European culture and western mores, their kids will have some interest, and *their* children yet more.

Birth rates in general are a larger issue, but certainly not insurmountable. France is a bad example because they've just let the public sector become far too bloated in general, while Southern Europe is just silly with corruption, leading to large-scale tax-dodging and governments quite willing to cook the books, as in Greece, Italy, and Spain.

In Northern Europe you see a different story: functioning socialism through sane, trim governments that work with markets, and not against them.

And you certainly can legislate the poor into prosperity, but its a matter of how you choose to do so. Simply giving them cash will see no difference, but giving them the ability to better themselves, by having stable housing, enough food to eat, clothing, education, and health, then they'll be capable of seeking out the paths to prosperity.

A side note on comparative health care is that the American system has too much care. We're over-perscribed, over-diagnosed, and over-analyzed. A lot of time is wasted on giving care to people who don't need it.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.