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Forums - Politics - Illinois Proposal wants to allow 17 year olds to vote....

LiquorandGunFun said:
sc94597 said:
LiquorandGunFun said:
of course, the kids are freshly indoctrinated from public schools, plus its a blue state so go figure. i think its a bad idea.

Actually why would indoctrination matter in this instance? They're talking about allowing 17 year olds to vote in the primaries. That isn't a inter-partisan vote. 


It can affect how they think before thye have to get out on thier own. Its different when your at moms house then when your out working. There is no such thing as a right to vote. 

Yes there is such thing as a right to vote when you are involuntarily part of a state, it's called suffrage and has been guranteed since the 14th amendment when the concept of citizenship replaced a sovereign individual. Suffrage is a positive right, just like due process of law. Also these are primaries. A liberal bias in the education system won't affect how a republican voter will vote for a republican candidate versus another republican candidate. That's silly. And your second argument is just as silly considering how many parents are unqualified to vote themselves, despite "working" their whole lives. As long as somebody is taxed they should be able to vote, otherwise taxation is theft in most ideologies. 



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sc94597 said:
LiquorandGunFun said:
sc94597 said:
LiquorandGunFun said:
of course, the kids are freshly indoctrinated from public schools, plus its a blue state so go figure. i think its a bad idea.

Actually why would indoctrination matter in this instance? They're talking about allowing 17 year olds to vote in the primaries. That isn't a inter-partisan vote. 


It can affect how they think before thye have to get out on thier own. Its different when your at moms house then when your out working. There is no such thing as a right to vote. 

Yes there is such thing as a right to vote when you are involuntarily part of a state, it's called suffrage and has been guranteed since the 14th amendment when the concept of citizenship replaced a sovereign individual. Suffrage is a positive right, just like due process of law. Also these are primaries. A liberal bias in the education system won't affect how a republican voter will vote for a republican candidate versus another republican candidate. That's silly. And your second argument is just as silly considering how many parents are unqualified to vote themselves, despite "working" their whole lives. As long as somebody is taxed they should be able to vote, otherwise taxation is theft in most ideologies. 

The 14th admendment helped women get voting rights but i really dont think a 17 year old is in that kind of perdiciment. That is more silly than anything.



 

LiquorandGunFun said:
sc94597 said:
LiquorandGunFun said:
sc94597 said:
LiquorandGunFun said:
of course, the kids are freshly indoctrinated from public schools, plus its a blue state so go figure. i think its a bad idea.

Actually why would indoctrination matter in this instance? They're talking about allowing 17 year olds to vote in the primaries. That isn't a inter-partisan vote. 


It can affect how they think before thye have to get out on thier own. Its different when your at moms house then when your out working. There is no such thing as a right to vote. 

Yes there is such thing as a right to vote when you are involuntarily part of a state, it's called suffrage and has been guranteed since the 14th amendment when the concept of citizenship replaced a sovereign individual. Suffrage is a positive right, just like due process of law. Also these are primaries. A liberal bias in the education system won't affect how a republican voter will vote for a republican candidate versus another republican candidate. That's silly. And your second argument is just as silly considering how many parents are unqualified to vote themselves, despite "working" their whole lives. As long as somebody is taxed they should be able to vote, otherwise taxation is theft in most ideologies. 

The 14th admendment helped women get voting rights but i really dont think a 17 year old is in that kind of perdiciment. That is more silly than anything.

Almost half the seventeen year olds in my high school had part-time jobs, about half of which paid income taxes. They certainly are in that predicament. Nevertheless, what makes eighteen any different?

Furthermore, if we are to contest anybody's voting rights it should be the uneducated, such as yourself. 

 I knew what the fourteenth amendment did when I was in eighth grade civics class. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

You are talking about the Nineteenth Amendment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution



sc94597 said:

Firstly, I'm not citing wikipedia as a source. I was referring to an online encyclopedia which collects sources itself for people to read and organize called wikipedia. If somebody were to find sources on a conservative bias they would have. 

Secondly, the whole conservative bias article was a refutation of a liberal bias. Furthermore it specifically mentions and cites an academic source which verifies  that there have been more studies verifying a left than the populous media than not, and consequently more than a right to the populous media.

Quite obviously with your blind declination of wikipedia I can  tell that you just mimick what people tell you. Wikipedia is not an academic source, that does not mean it can't be used to find academic sources and information. In fact, it's quite a good tool for finding information, especially if you read the history logs of the editing. Most academics use wikipedia for this reason. 

http://www.journalism.org/node/2304

Pro tip: ad hominem attacks are a bad idea, they don't cat you or your argument in a positive light.

Firstly, Wikipedia is informed by a community of people with their own views. If the people who cared enough to contribute and research cared more about a certain viewpoint, it will be more represented.

Secondly, that not conclusive in the slightest; many such studies are commissioned for the purpose of "finding" a preconcieved result. More could simply have looked for a left slant.

I'm two months off a postgrad in journalism, so I'm pretty confident in saying that the "liberal media" label is more a symptom of a persecution complex by those who feel their views are being attacked than any reflection of reality. People see their views as normal, so they only ever notice when someone disagrees with them.

I honestly don't care enough to keep responding though, so peace out.



sc94597 said:
LiquorandGunFun said:
sc94597 said:
LiquorandGunFun said:
sc94597 said:
LiquorandGunFun said:
of course, the kids are freshly indoctrinated from public schools, plus its a blue state so go figure. i think its a bad idea.

Actually why would indoctrination matter in this instance? They're talking about allowing 17 year olds to vote in the primaries. That isn't a inter-partisan vote. 


It can affect how they think before thye have to get out on thier own. Its different when your at moms house then when your out working. There is no such thing as a right to vote. 

Yes there is such thing as a right to vote when you are involuntarily part of a state, it's called suffrage and has been guranteed since the 14th amendment when the concept of citizenship replaced a sovereign individual. Suffrage is a positive right, just like due process of law. Also these are primaries. A liberal bias in the education system won't affect how a republican voter will vote for a republican candidate versus another republican candidate. That's silly. And your second argument is just as silly considering how many parents are unqualified to vote themselves, despite "working" their whole lives. As long as somebody is taxed they should be able to vote, otherwise taxation is theft in most ideologies. 

The 14th admendment helped women get voting rights but i really dont think a 17 year old is in that kind of perdiciment. That is more silly than anything.

Almost half the seventeen year olds in my high school had part-time jobs, about half of which paid income taxes. They certainly are in that predicament. Nevertheless, what makes eighteen any different?

Furthermore, if we are to contest anybody's voting rights it should be the uneducated, such as yourself. 

 I knew what the fourteenth amendment did when I was in eighth grade civics class. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution


and if you quit paying taxes you can work for the IRS and the white house. to call someone uneducated is weak when you dont agree.  and i still dont think 17 year olds should vote.



 

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LiquorandGunFun said:
sc94597 said:
LiquorandGunFun said:
sc94597 said:
LiquorandGunFun said:
sc94597 said:
LiquorandGunFun said:
of course, the kids are freshly indoctrinated from public schools, plus its a blue state so go figure. i think its a bad idea.

Actually why would indoctrination matter in this instance? They're talking about allowing 17 year olds to vote in the primaries. That isn't a inter-partisan vote. 


It can affect how they think before thye have to get out on thier own. Its different when your at moms house then when your out working. There is no such thing as a right to vote. 

Yes there is such thing as a right to vote when you are involuntarily part of a state, it's called suffrage and has been guranteed since the 14th amendment when the concept of citizenship replaced a sovereign individual. Suffrage is a positive right, just like due process of law. Also these are primaries. A liberal bias in the education system won't affect how a republican voter will vote for a republican candidate versus another republican candidate. That's silly. And your second argument is just as silly considering how many parents are unqualified to vote themselves, despite "working" their whole lives. As long as somebody is taxed they should be able to vote, otherwise taxation is theft in most ideologies. 

The 14th admendment helped women get voting rights but i really dont think a 17 year old is in that kind of perdiciment. That is more silly than anything.

Almost half the seventeen year olds in my high school had part-time jobs, about half of which paid income taxes. They certainly are in that predicament. Nevertheless, what makes eighteen any different?

Furthermore, if we are to contest anybody's voting rights it should be the uneducated, such as yourself. 

 I knew what the fourteenth amendment did when I was in eighth grade civics class. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution


and if you quit paying taxes you can work for the IRS and the white house. to call someone uneducated is weak when you dont agree.  and i still dont think 17 year olds should vote.

I didn't call you uneducated because I don't agree with you. I called you uneducated because you are uneducated. And I personally believe that persons who are uneducated in regards to law should use their natural right to liberty to consciously make the decision not to vote.

As for the taxes, one must remember, "no taxation without representation." If you are paying taxes and you can't vote, then it is the government who is breaking natural law and you should push for voting rights. 



At 17 you competent so I see no reason why not.



curl-6 said:
sc94597 said:

Firstly, I'm not citing wikipedia as a source. I was referring to an online encyclopedia which collects sources itself for people to read and organize called wikipedia. If somebody were to find sources on a conservative bias they would have. 

Secondly, the whole conservative bias article was a refutation of a liberal bias. Furthermore it specifically mentions and cites an academic source which verifies  that there have been more studies verifying a left than the populous media than not, and consequently more than a right to the populous media.

Quite obviously with your blind declination of wikipedia I can  tell that you just mimick what people tell you. Wikipedia is not an academic source, that does not mean it can't be used to find academic sources and information. In fact, it's quite a good tool for finding information, especially if you read the history logs of the editing. Most academics use wikipedia for this reason. 

http://www.journalism.org/node/2304

Pro tip: ad hominem attacks are a bad idea, they don't cat you or your argument in a positive light.

Firstly, Wikipedia is informed by a community of people with their own views. If the people who cared enough to contribute and research cared more about a certain viewpoint, it will be more represented.

Secondly, that not conclusive in the slightest; many such studies are commissioned for the purpose of "finding" a preconcieved result. More could simply have looked for a left slant.

I'm two months off a postgrad in journalism, so I'm pretty confident in saying that the "liberal media" label is more a symptom of a persecution complex by those who feel their views are being attacked than any reflection of reality. People see their views as normal, so they only ever notice when someone disagrees with them.

I honestly don't care enough to keep responding though, so peace out.

Actually I'd call it appeal to psychology, but I'm sure ad hominem fits as well. Either way, you used appeal to authority and plenty of other logical fallacies yourself, strawman, and non sequitur being a few others. 

Firstly, my argument after reading the editing history of that page is that there are enough people on both sides who cared enough. Particularly when it comes to politics, the pages get locked and only substantiated claims are allowed anyway. 

As for your second argument, some of these studies are indeed flawed, as given by the statistical credence. However, my argument isn't based on anecdotal data, but empirical data. A survey asking a sizable portion of journalists whether or not they support the democratic or republican party is quite fool-proof, especially considering the huge variation (60% Democrat vs. 15%. Republican)  and how this deviates from similar surveys on the general population. 

 



forbidding people to smoke until 21 but allowing them to vote with 17.

the usa are indeed ruled by a bunch of hypocrit psychopaths.



SxyxS said:
forbidding people to smoke until 21 but allowing them to vote with 17.

the usa are indeed ruled by a bunch of hypocrit psychopaths.

Smoking is decriminalized at all ages pretty much (a kid won't be sent to juvenile detention for smoking.) You can legally buy and smoke cigarettes at 18.