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Forums - Gaming Discussion - [Ending Spoiler] Bioshock Infinite and the clear lack of tolerance by some people...

JWeinCom said:

@Mr. Puggsly: Funny how addressing something that happened in our history is considered edgy. The things portrayed in Infinite are not too far off from the reality of things, which is precisely why those themes were necessary. Any game that takes place in 1910-1920's America and doesn't address racism would be pretty inadequate.

Ah c'mon! By 1910 blacks were already votin, interracial marriages were already happening, etc. Lincoln had already passed that 13th Amendment thing.

Also, not a great portrayal of our forefathers! They were used as symbols of hate!

I dunno man! Sometimes I'd like to think there is more to American history than racism and religious nuts. Who funded this game? MSNBC?



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osed125 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Cool game, but it was clearly written by liberals.

Not really sure how I feel about the story. A lot of the racism and religious stuff was kinda unnecessary. Felt like they just wanted to be edgy, it was over the top.

A lot of movies do the same thing and people don't consider them over the top or edgy (for the most part). This shouldn't be any different for games.

Movies have often criticized for trying to hard to be edgy or just being tasteless.



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Bioshock Infinite didn't really seem as political as people made it out to be. Obviously the setting explores racism, worker and class unrest, taking advantage of religion and worship, extremism, and so on, but to me, the story seemed more about regret, redemption, and self-sacrifice.  Both Comstock's followers and the Vox Populi are portrayed negatively, and the story shifts to a much more personal focus during the second half of the game.

It's also important to understand that this is a story set in a fictional Columbia (a society that dislikes America and seceded from it), and it is Comstock and his followers that are corrupting the image of America's founders.



Mr Puggsly said:
osed125 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Cool game, but it was clearly written by liberals.

Not really sure how I feel about the story. A lot of the racism and religious stuff was kinda unnecessary. Felt like they just wanted to be edgy, it was over the top.

A lot of movies do the same thing and people don't consider them over the top or edgy (for the most part). This shouldn't be any different for games.

Movies have often criticized for trying to hard to be edgy or just being tasteless.

Yes they are, and so as many video games. The game shows how the problems of racism were at the time (with the fictional setting of Columbia), just because the game focuses on this issue (which is probably not the main one to begin with) it doesn't mean they are being over the top. It's like saying that The Great Debaters (a movie that touches very heavy racism subjects) is edgy and over the top because you see a black man being tortured by white people. 



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arcelonious said:

Bioshock Infinite didn't really seem as political as people made it out to be. Obviously the setting explores racism, worker and class unrest, taking advantage of religion and worship, extremism, and so on, but to me, the story seemed more about regret, redemption, and self-sacrifice.  Both Comstock's followers and the Vox Populi are portrayed negatively, and the story shifts to a much more personal focus during the second half of the game.

It's also important to understand that this is a story set in a fictional Columbia (a society that dislikes America and seceded from it), and it is Comstock and his followers that are corrupting the image of America's founders.

They are both portrayed negatively and positively. When you enter Fintztown (I believe that's what's called) you see all this people dying of hunger. You understand why this people started the rebellion. The game shows both sides: 

1) The crazy Comstock followers who killed people and why the Vox Populi had to the things they do.

2) The crazy Vox Populi who killed innocent people who were just following a man, and never did harm to anyone.



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Mr Puggsly said:

Cool game, but it was clearly written by liberals.

Not really sure how I feel about the story. A lot of the racism and religious stuff was kinda unnecessary. Felt like they just wanted to be edgy, it was over the top.

If you are doing a game in that time period, it would take on exactly the overtones that it did, because the revivalism and racism seen in the game were a part of the cultural landscape.  And, with it looking at religious nationalism, it is natural for it to go in the direction it did.  The turn of the 20th century did have utopian overtones and belief in heaven on earth (or literally above the clouds).



arcelonious said:

Bioshock Infinite didn't really seem as political as people made it out to be. Obviously the setting explores racism, worker and class unrest, taking advantage of religion and worship, extremism, and so on, but to me, the story seemed more about regret, redemption, and self-sacrifice.  Both Comstock's followers and the Vox Populi are portrayed negatively, and the story shifts to a much more personal focus during the second half of the game.

It's also important to understand that this is a story set in a fictional Columbia (a society that dislikes America and seceded from it), and it is Comstock and his followers that are corrupting the image of America's founders.

I believe a big hook of Bioshock is it builds a world around a political ideology and takes it to an extreme.  You had the original Bioshock based around Objectivism, and the second was based around Utilitarianism.  Bioshock Infinite is based around religious nationalism.  When you do this, it ends up taking on political overtones, and done to more of an extreme, it is a critique of the ideology.  So, it goes into being political by basing a game around studies of it.  At least that is what got me interested in the Bioshock games.



JWeinCom said:
1. Not only is it anti-extremist, but the game is actually a criticism of Christianity in general that attacks the very foundation (sacrifice of the child for the sake of the world) of Christianity. I don't think people get how against Christianity (but not necessarily Christians) this game is.

2. Comparing it to homosexuality is not an apt description. There is quite a large difference between homosexuals (an oppressed group) and Christianity (the dominant culture). Also, at no point in known history did a gay zealot unite the gay community which then began oppressing others. This has happened with religions in the past, and with christianity in particular. In other words, a city run by a religious zealot that abuses his people is believable and relevant in the historical context of our society. A city run by homosexuals that enslaves heterosexuals would be silly.

3. If someone wanted to quit, then by all means. I wouldn't want to work on a project that I had severe ideological differences with.either. But, whats upsetting is the fact that a work of art may be altered for the sole purpose of appeasing someone's sensibilities.

@Mr. Puggsly: Funny how addressing something that happened in our history is considered edgy. The things portrayed in Infinite are not too far off from the reality of things, which is precisely why those themes were necessary. Any game that takes place in 1910-1920's America and doesn't address racism would be pretty inadequate.

I made mention of homosexuality, to show that if you change the subject matter, you are more inclined to get much greater criticisms and degrees of hatred towards the subject in question.  Like I made mention, there were individuals who posted a reply to an article that some Christians working on Infinite expressed reservations, and threatened to quit over the way things went, and the reply by people who knew nothing of the ending, was "f the Christians".  Change the subject studied, and you likely get the same individuals who would cheer them for threatening to quit.

What I do notice is the most vocal critics around Christianity are former Christians.  They leave the religion, but keep their fundamentalistic mentality and ire.  Leaving the religion really didn't make them any better.  Maybe they are more "correct" in their understanding, but still as obnoxious as they had been.

Also, commercial products WILL be altered if the offend the sensibilities of people.  Bioshock Infinite has artistic vision, but its purpose for being produced isn't artistic, it is business.  It is supposed to sell and keep Irrational in business.  Commercial interests will almost always tweak artistic integrity.  Sometimes, though, it can lead to really, really stupid works.  You see how the latest Red Dawn reboot got changed to North Korea, because having China as the enemy would cost sales in China.  This goes beyond art to totally ignoring realities of what likely isn't going to happen.



But she didn't kill him to stop him becoming a Christian leader, she killed him so that he wouldn't steal her childhood and make her into a mass murderer. The ending how it shipped borrows Christian themes with him being "baptised" in the river wiping away his sins in a literal sense in that his sins literally never happened. Nothing in the game says Christianity is bad just that nut jobs that use religion to manipulate and control people to further their own desires are just that, there are plenty of real world examples of that stuff happening using many different religions. Your homosexuality scenario really doesn't work the same way at all, and you can't stop yourself becoming homosexual anyway.

Maybe the original ending was offensive, but the current one is pretty damn tame. If anything your post is probably more offensive to homosexual people than the game is to Christians.



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Mr Puggsly said:
JWeinCom said:

@Mr. Puggsly: Funny how addressing something that happened in our history is considered edgy. The things portrayed in Infinite are not too far off from the reality of things, which is precisely why those themes were necessary. Any game that takes place in 1910-1920's America and doesn't address racism would be pretty inadequate.

Ah c'mon! By 1910 blacks were already votin, interracial marriages were already happening, etc. Lincoln had already passed that 13th Amendment thing.

Also, not a great portrayal of our forefathers! They were used as symbols of hate!

I dunno man! Sometimes I'd like to think there is more to American history than racism and religious nuts. Who funded this game? MSNBC?


You gotta be kidding me.  By 1910 racism was over?  Segregation was still in effect, lynchings were not uncommon.  Interracial marriage was not legal nationwide until 1967. Segregation ended in the 50s. That's not to mention prejudices against many other groups, largely immigrants.  Bioshock Infinite touches upon that with the Irish, but it's downplayed in comparison to the issues with blacks.

Yes there is more to American history than racism, but racism is severely downplayed in many cases including a lot of our schools.  So it's good to adress it in art.