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UN Upgrades Palestine to Non-Member Observer State

Forums - Politics Discussion - UN Upgrades Palestine to Non-Member Observer State

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Do you support this move by the UN?

Yes 71 74.74%
 
No 20 21.05%
 
Don't Know / See Results 3 3.16%
 
Total:94
Veknoid_Outcast said:
Kasz216 said:
maximrace said:
I think they deserve their own state. The jews took away the palestines their land and made their own country on it. Now they act like it is their right to murder the palestines and so on. Letting this happen was one of the biggest mistakes the west ever made. Anyone who supports israel on this one is just a fool and should take some history lessons.

That's... not remotely what happened... that's silly.  If anyone needs a history lesson it's  you.

First off... if anybody took the Palestinian's land it was the UK.  Who took it from the Ottomans... who took it from the Malmulak Egptians (non arabs), who took it from the Kurds, who i beleive took it from the Crusaders?

Either way, the UK negotiated with the Palestinian leadership of the time to let Jewish people move in, in exchange for well... development.  Since the Jewish people moving in were rich, were paying for the land they settled in and were building up the local economy.

The arabs backtracked on the deal, largely because the UK screwed the arabs.

See... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal%E2%80%93Weizmann_Agreement

Then the UK, taking soverignty from the Palestinians allowed Jewish people to BUY land from the Palestinians.  Not steal it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine

UN plan made, Palestinians disagreed, wars happened, the arabs lost and lost a lot of land that way... and here we are.0

 

If you blame anybody.  You don't blame the Jews.  You blame the UK and the greedy palestinian elite, who sold land to make a quick buck. (Many of which are major figures or the fathers of major figures in Palestine.)  All the jews did was buy unincorporated land that people were willing to sell to them after the foreign purchase laws were removed.

This doesn't paint a full picture of history. You have to account for the Zionist movement, for the civil war in 1947-1948, and for the war in 1948 (and resulting exodus). It's not true that Arabs living in what is now Israel/Palestine suffered only because of British mandatory powers, and their own corrupt leadership.

Not by a long shot.

The 1947-1948 war was started by the same aforementioned corrupt arab leadership.

While the Zionist movement... was mostly them purchasing land, and lobbying for the ability to purchase land and immigrate there.

So... I'm not understanding your points here.



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Kasz216 said:
Veknoid_Outcast said:
Kasz216 said:
maximrace said:
I think they deserve their own state. The jews took away the palestines their land and made their own country on it. Now they act like it is their right to murder the palestines and so on. Letting this happen was one of the biggest mistakes the west ever made. Anyone who supports israel on this one is just a fool and should take some history lessons.

That's... not remotely what happened... that's silly.  If anyone needs a history lesson it's  you.

First off... if anybody took the Palestinian's land it was the UK.  Who took it from the Ottomans... who took it from the Malmulak Egptians (non arabs), who took it from the Kurds, who i beleive took it from the Crusaders?

Either way, the UK negotiated with the Palestinian leadership of the time to let Jewish people move in, in exchange for well... development.  Since the Jewish people moving in were rich, were paying for the land they settled in and were building up the local economy.

The arabs backtracked on the deal, largely because the UK screwed the arabs.

See... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal%E2%80%93Weizmann_Agreement

Then the UK, taking soverignty from the Palestinians allowed Jewish people to BUY land from the Palestinians.  Not steal it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine

UN plan made, Palestinians disagreed, wars happened, the arabs lost and lost a lot of land that way... and here we are.0

 

If you blame anybody.  You don't blame the Jews.  You blame the UK and the greedy palestinian elite, who sold land to make a quick buck. (Many of which are major figures or the fathers of major figures in Palestine.)  All the jews did was buy unincorporated land that people were willing to sell to them after the foreign purchase laws were removed.

This doesn't paint a full picture of history. You have to account for the Zionist movement, for the civil war in 1947-1948, and for the war in 1948 (and resulting exodus). It's not true that Arabs living in what is now Israel/Palestine suffered only because of British mandatory powers, and their own corrupt leadership.

Not by a long shot.

The 1947-1948 war was started by the same aforementioned corrupt arab leadership.

While the Zionist movement... was mostly them purchasing land, and lobbying for the ability to purchase land and immigrate there.

So... I'm not understanding your points here.

He's probably referring to the Stern Gang and their terrorist activities in the area previously.

Edit: weird. Wiki said the Stern Gang allied with the Axis Powers during World War II.



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Kasz216 said:
Veknoid_Outcast said:
Kasz216 said:
maximrace said:
[...]

That's... not remotely what happened... that's silly.  If anyone needs a history lesson it's  you.

First off... if anybody took the Palestinian's land it was the UK.  Who took it from the Ottomans... who took it from the Malmulak Egptians (non arabs), who took it from the Kurds, who i beleive took it from the Crusaders?

Either way, the UK negotiated with the Palestinian leadership of the time to let Jewish people move in, in exchange for well... development.  Since the Jewish people moving in were rich, were paying for the land they settled in and were building up the local economy.

The arabs backtracked on the deal, largely because the UK screwed the arabs.

See... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal%E2%80%93Weizmann_Agreement

Then the UK, taking soverignty from the Palestinians allowed Jewish people to BUY land from the Palestinians.  Not steal it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine

UN plan made, Palestinians disagreed, wars happened, the arabs lost and lost a lot of land that way... and here we are.0

 

If you blame anybody.  You don't blame the Jews.  You blame the UK and the greedy palestinian elite, who sold land to make a quick buck. (Many of which are major figures or the fathers of major figures in Palestine.)  All the jews did was buy unincorporated land that people were willing to sell to them after the foreign purchase laws were removed.

This doesn't paint a full picture of history. You have to account for the Zionist movement, for the civil war in 1947-1948, and for the war in 1948 (and resulting exodus). It's not true that Arabs living in what is now Israel/Palestine suffered only because of British mandatory powers, and their own corrupt leadership.

Not by a long shot.

The 1947-1948 war was started by the same aforementioned corrupt arab leadership.

While the Zionist movement... was mostly them purchasing land, and lobbying for the ability to purchase land and immigrate there.

So... I'm not understanding your points here.

My point is that Zionism wasn't entirely non-violent, that some Jewish settlers and militiamen carried out awful things during that war -- Deir Yassin being the most infamous but hardly the only -- and that Israel, after declaring its independence, forcibly evicted Arabs from their homes, bulldozed entire neighborhoods, and made a conscious effort to "cleanse" Palestine/Israel of ethnic Arabs.



the2real4mafol said:
This is brilliant news, the sooner Palestine (at it's current borders) become a country, the sooner we should have peace there hopefully. The conflict there just has to stop, it has gone on for too long

The problem is there are no borders.  The UN agreed that Israel has a right to defense and to protect itself from foreign invasion, by doing so gave them the right to adjust the borders to guarantee its survival.  This allows Israel to control any borders that would harm them.

If there was to ever be a Palestine state then they must give up their military power and allow Israel to control all borders, Land, sea and air space for the state.  In accordance with this, Israel would allow land swaps and negotiation of borders.  Jerusalem must also remain in israel control, but allow palestinan police to help control the borders with the palestinian State and to secure Israel from any threats of Sucide bombings or militant activity.



Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
Veknoid_Outcast said:
Kasz216 said:
maximrace said:
I think they deserve their own state. The jews took away the palestines their land and made their own country on it. Now they act like it is their right to murder the palestines and so on. Letting this happen was one of the biggest mistakes the west ever made. Anyone who supports israel on this one is just a fool and should take some history lessons.

That's... not remotely what happened... that's silly.  If anyone needs a history lesson it's  you.

First off... if anybody took the Palestinian's land it was the UK.  Who took it from the Ottomans... who took it from the Malmulak Egptians (non arabs), who took it from the Kurds, who i beleive took it from the Crusaders?

Either way, the UK negotiated with the Palestinian leadership of the time to let Jewish people move in, in exchange for well... development.  Since the Jewish people moving in were rich, were paying for the land they settled in and were building up the local economy.

The arabs backtracked on the deal, largely because the UK screwed the arabs.

See... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal%E2%80%93Weizmann_Agreement

Then the UK, taking soverignty from the Palestinians allowed Jewish people to BUY land from the Palestinians.  Not steal it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine

UN plan made, Palestinians disagreed, wars happened, the arabs lost and lost a lot of land that way... and here we are.0

 

If you blame anybody.  You don't blame the Jews.  You blame the UK and the greedy palestinian elite, who sold land to make a quick buck. (Many of which are major figures or the fathers of major figures in Palestine.)  All the jews did was buy unincorporated land that people were willing to sell to them after the foreign purchase laws were removed.

This doesn't paint a full picture of history. You have to account for the Zionist movement, for the civil war in 1947-1948, and for the war in 1948 (and resulting exodus). It's not true that Arabs living in what is now Israel/Palestine suffered only because of British mandatory powers, and their own corrupt leadership.

Not by a long shot.

The 1947-1948 war was started by the same aforementioned corrupt arab leadership.

While the Zionist movement... was mostly them purchasing land, and lobbying for the ability to purchase land and immigrate there.

So... I'm not understanding your points here.

He's probably referring to the Stern Gang and their terrorist activities in the area previously.

Edit: weird. Wiki said the Stern Gang allied with the Axis Powers during World War II.


Not really.  You've got to keep in mind that Holocaust was a surprisingly well kept secret.  For the early parts of WW2 nobody outside of the Axis Powers and the higher ups of Allied leaders knew of it.

The allies not disseminating said information one would assume because it would kind of force specific targets that wouldn't really help the war effort as much.

Most likely the Stern Gang thought they were planning to ship jews outwords, and he could basically convince Hitler that Jersualem was the perfect dumping grounds for all the unwanted Europeon Jews.  Worked perfectly.  The Germans would get what they see as the perfect "Trash dump" while he would get his Jewish State by manipulating Germany's anti-semitism.

As for them though.  From what I rememeber... they were an extremely small terrorist group with a couple large attacks that never saw large support, and didn't accomplish anything except turning public sentiment against them... and were ultimatly disbanded when Israel declared them terrorists and took them out.



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i could call my toaster a state, but that wont make it a state (i dont actually own a toaster; i hate toast)



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MrBubbles said:
i could call my toaster a state, but that wont make it a state (i dont actually own a toaster; i hate toast)

International recognition is what defines sovereignty, at least in this day and age, and the UN is the only body that can dole that out in any way that has meaning, due to universal UN membership aside from a few quasi-states like Taiwan, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transdniestria, Puntland, Nagorno-Karabakh, and Kosovo.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Being a french/spanish jew I try to stay away from pro-Israeli jews who consider it Holy instead of political.

I have also always regretted the attitude of neighboring countries since they haven't done shit for Palestinians (except instrumentalize them - i'm looking at you Muslim brothers) and put the blame on Israel for all Palestinian misery.

In this case I have to say I was very proud of my two nations (France and Spain ftw) and appalled by the Israeli rhetoric.

How the fuck is recognizing Palestinians as a state preventing negotiations ???
How the fuck is extending settlement towards Eastern Jerusalem a pacifist policy ???

I sincerely hope Palestinians will now seize the ICC regarding all acts since 2002


(oh - and btw - fuck Hamas and the Muslim brotherhood)



Player1x3 said:
Rath said:
I don't see a problem with this at all. I mean nearly everyone agrees Palestine should eventually be a state - what is the problem in elevating their status to observer state status in the UN?


It totally ignores Israeli sovereignty over palestinian land?

What sovereignity?

They are internationally recognised as occupied territories - Israel does not have any sovereign rights to them. This is why the building of settlements is so controversial, it is essentially an annexation of land which they do not have sovereignity over.



Kasz216 said:
maximrace said:
I think they deserve their own state. The jews took away the palestines their land and made their own country on it. Now they act like it is their right to murder the palestines and so on. Letting this happen was one of the biggest mistakes the west ever made. Anyone who supports israel on this one is just a fool and should take some history lessons.

That's... not remotely what happened... that's silly.  If anyone needs a history lesson it's  you.

First off... if anybody took the Palestinian's land it was the UK.  Who took it from the Ottomans... who took it from the Malmulak Egptians (non arabs), who took it from the Kurds, who i beleive took it from the Crusaders?

Either way, the UK negotiated with the Palestinian leadership of the time to let Jewish people move in, in exchange for well... development.  Since the Jewish people moving in were rich, were paying for the land they settled in and were building up the local economy.

The arabs backtracked on the deal, largely because the UK screwed the arabs.

See... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal%E2%80%93Weizmann_Agreement

Then the UK, taking soverignty from the Palestinians allowed Jewish people to BUY land from the Palestinians.  Not steal it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine

UN plan made, Palestinians disagreed, wars happened, the arabs lost and lost a lot of land that way... and here we are.0

 

If you blame anybody.  You don't blame the Jews.  You blame the UK and the greedy palestinian elite, who sold land to make a quick buck. (Many of which are major figures or the fathers of major figures in Palestine.)  All the jews did was buy unincorporated land that people were willing to sell to them after the foreign purchase laws were removed.


I agree in the sense the Arab ruling Elite have a lot to answer for and share a huge responsibility for loss of land but only a fraction of it is down to Jews buying land.  Also you are also omitting some crucial historical events namely-

Mass illegal Jewish immigration particularly from Europe.

The role violent Jewish millitant groups such as Irgun, Haganah and the Stern Gang played in forcing the British hand in their favour.

Unilateral declaration of Independence.

In fact why did the Palestinians turn down the UN partition offer? (It's worth noting the UN was much smaller in number back then and European colonial empires were still around).

TerritoryArab and other population % Arab and otherJewish population % JewishTotal population
Arab State 725,000 99% 10,000 1% 735,000
Jewish State 407,000 45% 498,000 55% 905,000
International 105,000 51% 100,000 49% 205,000
Total 1,237,000 67% 608,000 33% 1,845,000
Data from the Report of UNSCOP – 1947