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Forums - General Discussion - Occupy Wall Street Protests not working? What do you think?

 

How much of an impact is OWS having?

Can't hear them over the sound of my Ferrari 60 24.10%
 
Just a news story, no visible results 82 32.93%
 
Helping change minds, it's a start 68 27.31%
 
Change is on the horizon, just you wait 27 10.84%
 
I feel the impact already 6 2.41%
 
Can't hear them over the... 6 2.41%
 
Total:249
KichiVerde said:

There are two types of immigrants in America. Voluntary and involuntary. The involuntary immigrants are those who were made American by force, such as slaves, American Indians and hispanics. Their lands were taken and they were made to assimilate. Their descendants have been continually discriminated against ever since. Voluntary immigrants come to America seeking a better life, but they to must face assimilation or social alienation. You either learn to speak English and adhere to the dominant values of the white supremacist hegemony, or fail to succeed in anything.

Obviously, many black people did come to America as slaves and could (therefore) were involuntary immigrants; but not all black people came to the United States as slaves, and a lot of black people today (including Barack Obama) are the result of voluntary immigration to the United States. There is an argument that the indigenous people of the United States (much like the indigenous people everywhere) were exploited by more advanced cultures, but claiming they immigrated involuntarily demonstrates a gigantic misunderstanding of what immigration is.

As for hispanics ...

Hispanics have always voluntarily immigrated to the United States and have done so primarily for greater economic opportunity. Where there are exceptions, the vast majority of them have been able to have a much higher standard of living than they would have had in their homeland.

KichiVerde said:

At any rate capitalism is the true enemy. I could write a whole paper about the evils of capitalism, but it's most fundamental flaw is unrealistic sustainability perpetuated by a need for economic growth.  In other words capitalism only work if the the economy grows.  There are two ways to achieve this. Industrialization or modernization is the first. But for America that is no no longer a possibility. The second is an increase in consumers and laborers. This is why America needs immigrants. And there are 1.3 million entering the country every year. This need for more people will never cease. Population density will increase and more resources will be consumed. The problem is we live in a world where the amount of resources we can consume is finite. If we do not change the market economy model, not only in this country but across the globe, we are headed for a major future crisis. But the hegemony exploits the capitalist model because they benefit from it. They grow richer. But the poor grow poorer.

First off, Capitalism is the economic system that has increased the standard of living of the poor far beyond what any other economic system has. The average income of the world is between $5,500 and $8,000 (depending on methodology) while in capitalist countries the average income is far higher, with those individuals earning anywhere near the worldwide average being heavily subsidized to have a much larger income.

Beyond that, your complaints about "unrealistic sustainability perpetuated by a need for economic growth" have been echoed for hundreds of years and it would be foolish to believe them now. As we get more and more individuals working in the free market, and these individuals are better educated and become more productive, the quantity and quality of goods and services we provide increases while the cost to create them (or buy them) decreases and the economy grows. Unless you believe that we’re at the technological pinnacle and we cannot advance, the economy will continue to grow.

 

KichiVerde said:

America chooses to repress its diversity. But with globalization intercultural and interlingual relations is becoming ever so more important. Therefore we should celebrate our diversity, allow it to flourish and draw strength from it. Immigration will never stop, so why not make the most of it?  And by promoting multiculturalism in a way that is mutually beneficial we can all work together to overcome racial and class barriers and focus on what is most important for everyone, our environment and social welfare. But until we cooperate and constructively advocate for change and possibly social revolution, America will continue its decline.

 

There are only a handful of countries in the world that are equal or better than the United States as embracing a diversity of cultures; and I would argue Canada is the primary example. Individuals who feel that they're being unfairly repressed in the United States really need to get a global perspective to understand just how good they have it. Certainly, the United States (and every country) could be better but I believe that the way to achieve this is to embrace the massive quantity of successes rather than fixate on the handful of failures.



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OWS in a nutshell...

* Whaaa! Banks are mean because they expect me to fullfill an agreement I knowingly entered.
* Whaaaa! I have a right to a high-dollar college education and YOU have to pay for it because I am more special than you. I could have gone to a local college and stayed at home, but I'd rather shackle somebody else with the bill.
* Whaaaa! Insider trading is evil... but don't point out that every attempt to prevent congress to capitalize on their knowlege of upcoming financial restrictions and bailouts has been shot down by those very people because we have a democratic senate and president.
* Whaaaa! Capitalism is bad... we should all live in communism where the powerful will still get more money and material consideration but the rest of the people will all have less choice and negligible upward mobilitly. We must revel in our "equality".
* Whaaaa! We're going to run-down the places where we protest and generally disrupt the flow of the WORKING people. We'll bring in catered gourmet food, but we'd better be sure to keep those stinky homeless people out of our food.
* Whaaaaaaaaaa! Some thief stole my I-Pad while I was protesting for the good of "everyone". How could someone be so evil... now let's get back to complaining about how MY spoiled demands should be payed for by everyone else.

Boo Hoo!



Student protesters assaulting police pepper spray.



KichiVerde said:

There is much injustice in America. We have a white supremacist hegemony that exercises power over the masses. But in any society there exists a hegemony. The problem with American society is that our hegemony is oppressive. It divides the masses, dominates and then exploits them. The only way for Americans to fight back is for the working class (the lower class and middle class combined) to unite and work toward common goals that are mutually beneficial for the majority of society. This can be done through boycotts, strikes and any other means that effect labor and consumerism, allowing the working class to hold sway over the market, and force the corporate capitalists to capitulate to their demands.

This is what happened during the Civil Rights movement of the 60's. Unfortunately, the social inequity of our nation was not fully addressed at the time. The legislation and bills granted equal rights but the white supremacist hegemony did not relinquish its grasp on the the money and power. Due to the economic disparity created by colonialism and slavery the whites have always held control in this country and do so to today. Some people may think I am being inflammatory in claiming the hegemony is 'white' but it is. This is because they impose a dominant culture that is based on white Eurocentric values. The aim is assimilation, the idea that America is a 'melting pot.' But this approach to multiculturalism is racist and oppressive because it disregards the identities of minorities, their language and culture, and moreover, stifles a truly democratic society. Cultures should exist side by side. They should cooperate with one another so they can decide what is best for everyone. However, in our nation all the major institutions favor an elite class of Euro-Americans made up of corporate capitalists, American conservatives and other political figures who support big business--the aforementioned white supremacist hegemony.

It is quite sad how our country is today.The key to anything is unity. But American values imposed by the hegemony are against unity in how they promote individuality. At the same time the hegemony works toward assimilation. Their agenda undermines our national identity by creating a situation where in being individuals we also prescribe to the dominant culture which goes against diversity. Racism, classism, and social indifference are the inherent product of this contradiction.

To justify their position the hegemony perpetuates the "American lie", the idea that anyone with a good education and personal initiative can rise above their position to get "a piece of the good life". But this is far from the truth. Oppression (and racism as a part of it) is institutionalized and systemic in society and makes it nearly impossible for a large and growing percentage of our population to achieve social mobility. With the wealth gap widening and the middle class shrinking, people are finally wising up to the fact, and they are directing their anger toward Washington and big business. But this accomplishes very little. They have to strike at the heart of capitalism. They have to impact the market. And they have to do it for the right reasons. We need social reform that is mutually agreeable and environmentally responsible. It will not uproot the capitalist machine that is the main source of inequity in our nation, but it will lead to concessions that can improve the lives of everyone. If we fail to fight, a large number of the oppressed will continue to exist in a bleak cycle of fatalism, inaction and exploitation. And that is something we as Americans should not stand for.

 

Consider yourself enlightened.


The white man is the devil,i always say



KichiVerde said:

There are two types of immigrants in America. Voluntary and involuntary. The involuntary immigrants are those who were made American by force, such as slaves, American Indians and hispanics. Their lands were taken and they were made to assimilate. Their descendants have been continually discriminated against ever since. Voluntary immigrants come to America seeking a better life, but they to must face assimilation or social alienation. You either learn to speak English and adhere to the dominant values of the white supremacist hegemony, or fail to succeed in anything.

At any rate capitalism is the true enemy. I could write a whole paper about the evils of capitalism, but it's most fundamental flaw is unrealistic sustainability perpetuated by a need for economic growth.  In other words capitalism only work if the the economy grows.  There are two ways to achieve this. Industrialization or modernization is the first. But for America that is no no longer a possibility. The second is an increase in consumers and laborers. This is why America needs immigrants. And there are 1.3 million entering the country every year. This need for more people will never cease. Population density will increase and more resources will be consumed. The problem is we live in a world where the amount of resources we can consume is finite. If we do not change the market economy model, not only in this country but across the globe, we are headed for a major future crisis. But the hegemony exploits the capitalist model because they benefit from it. They grow richer. But the poor grow poorer.

America chooses to repress its diversity. But with globalization intercultural and interlingual relations is becoming ever so more important. Therefore we should celebrate our diversity, allow it to flourish and draw strength from it. Immigration will never stop, so why not make the most of it?  And by promoting multiculturalism in a way that is mutually beneficial we can all work together to overcome racial and class barriers and focus on what is most important for everyone, our environment and social welfare. But until we cooperate and constructively advocate for change and possibly social revolution, America will continue its decline.

Yeah.... i'm just going to guess you are actually not serious right now... because this whole post is even more out there then the last one.

As for everyone being forced to speak english... the problem is, everyone ISN'T forced to speak english.

Having one language in a country is just called common sense.

I mean, say you have a neighborhood where there are 20 different ethnic groups who speak different languages, and a fire breaks out, or a crime happens.

How exactly are firefighters supposed to understand what these people who don't speak english are saying.  10+ language speaking firefighters are a bit of a rarity.

Or hell, even tornado warnings, will they need to put them in 50 languages?

 

America is quite possibly THE most multicultural country in the world.  Both in diversity and in accepting it.



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KichiVerde said:

There are two types of immigrants in America. Voluntary and involuntary. The involuntary immigrants are those who were made American by force, such as slaves, American Indians and hispanics. Their lands were taken and they were made to assimilate. Their descendants have been continually discriminated against ever since. Voluntary immigrants come to America seeking a better life, but they to must face assimilation or social alienation. You either learn to speak English and adhere to the dominant values of the white supremacist hegemony, or fail to succeed in anything.

At any rate capitalism is the true enemy. I could write a whole paper about the evils of capitalism, but it's most fundamental flaw is unrealistic sustainability perpetuated by a need for economic growth.  In other words capitalism only work if the the economy grows.  There are two ways to achieve this. Industrialization or modernization is the first. But for America that is no no longer a possibility. The second is an increase in consumers and laborers. This is why America needs immigrants. And there are 1.3 million entering the country every year. This need for more people will never cease. Population density will increase and more resources will be consumed. The problem is we live in a world where the amount of resources we can consume is finite. If we do not change the market economy model, not only in this country but across the globe, we are headed for a major future crisis. But the hegemony exploits the capitalist model because they benefit from it. They grow richer. But the poor grow poorer.

America chooses to repress its diversity. But with globalization intercultural and interlingual relations is becoming ever so more important. Therefore we should celebrate our diversity, allow it to flourish and draw strength from it. Immigration will never stop, so why not make the most of it?  And by promoting multiculturalism in a way that is mutually beneficial we can all work together to overcome racial and class barriers and focus on what is most important for everyone, our environment and social welfare. But until we cooperate and constructively advocate for change and possibly social revolution, America will continue its decline.

Yeah.... i'm just going to guess you are actually not serious right now... because this whole post is even more out there then the last one.

As for everyone being forced to speak english... the problem is, everyone ISN'T forced to speak english.

Having one language in a country is just called common sense.

I mean, say you have a neighborhood where there are 20 different ethnic groups who speak different languages, and a fire breaks out, or a crime happens.

How exactly are firefighters supposed to understand what these people who don't speak english are saying.  10+ language speaking firefighters are a bit of a rarity.

Or hell, even tornado warnings, will they need to put them in 50 languages?

 

America is quite possibly THE most multicultural country in the world.  Both in diversity and in accepting it.

The term "Melting pot" hasn't been used for the US in a long time... it's much more thought of as a "Salad bowl" type country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salad_bowl_%28cultural_idea%29

I really feel like you just don't actually live in the US despite what your profile says.



This is what I'd do if I was president...fuck the protesters.

1. End the federal reserve which is causing massive inflation which devalues the dollar, kills the value of people's savings, raises prices, etc.

2. Balance the budget and get yourselves out of debt. This includes getting rid of welfare, ending foreign wars, ending foreign aid, getting rid of employment insurance, and other pointless social programs. Replace all the social programs with a simple negative income tax. This can also be used to simplify the tax code and get rid of loopholes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo9ufzIXN3U

3. Get rid of minimum wage, which will end unemployment. And no unemployment also has the benefit of less crime and other bad stuff. And contrary to popular belief (by socialists) no minimum wage wouldn't suddenly mean employees get paid $.50/hour, they would be paid a competitive market wage depending on the responsibility/value of their job. And with lower wages prices of goods will go down and balance things out (as long as point 1 is done and inflation is ended). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMMN3UIQmEk

4. End social security. This government ponzi scheme needs to end, let people have their money and save it how they want. Don't force them into SS. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9isIOIjaFYc

5. Give people personal freedom. i.e. Legalize/tax marijuana, abortion, euthanasia, prostitution, and all other "crimes" that are victimless.

6. No more government run operations. Everything should be privatized. The exceptions to this are police, firefighters and national defense (might be another couple exceptions I can think of off the top of my head). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoSiA_eAZJg

7. Privatized education (goes with point 6). Instead of the current system I would implement nationwide education vouchers. This way people can choose which school they want their kids to go to and the cost is subsidized. Private schools have a way better track record than public schools because bad teachers can be fired, good teachers are rewarded, textbooks are actually up to date (not 10 years old), etc. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzFwzmBszIw

I could think of more but I have to go eat breakfast.



100% of posts on this thread have been posted by 0.1% of the users of this site.

Occupy this thread.



Andrespetmonkey said:
100% of posts on this thread have been posted by 0.1% of the users of this site.

Occupy this thread.


Is it too late to change the title to PS3 is doomed along with OWS protests?



BOOM!  FACE KICK!

Jexy said:
Andrespetmonkey said:
100% of posts on this thread have been posted by 0.1% of the users of this site.

Occupy this thread.


Is it too late to change the title to PS3 is doomed along with OWS protests?

PS3 is doomed? That's news to me :P