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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Bioware really needs to play more action games before making Mass Effect 3

disolitude said:
yo_john117 said:
disolitude said:

I rented mass effect 1 for an hour and didn't like it, but I picked up Mass Effect 2 after everyone and their dog telling me that action has been greatly improved. I spent about 14 hours with Mass Effect 2 thus far and while it is an improved experience for the action junkie, I find it still somewhat lacking.

It seems to me like Bioware must not have played Contra, Doom, Quake, Vectorman or any classic twitch action game as they have no clue how to generate tension in their action set pieces. Furthermore, the set pieces are 1/10th as imaginative as the best stuff found in some other games. Remember the last level of Half Life 2 Episode 2...with the tripods coming and defending the base etc. Well there isn't anything as engaging and tense in Mass Effect 2...not even close.

It almost looks like they miss the chances to make action gameplay more intense on purpose too. One of the missions involves traveling to a planet to help Zaid sort out some old grudge with an ex partner. There you find an option to save workers stuck in a burning factory complex. This situation would be 10X more fun, if it actually had a timer before factory explodes. that way you'd have to hurry up and shoot fast and quickly figure out where to go and what to do. Instead you get to strol through the burning factory without a care in the world...shooting enemies at leasure, powering up your weapons...etc.

I am not saying the game is not good as it clearly is an amazing package. I just wish the action elements were better...as they have no reason not to be.

No, timers in games just ruin the experience most of the time (there is the occasional exception)  I like to take my time in games and explore everything possible, and thats what makes Mass Effect so great.

No, timers don't ruin the experience when used properly.

You can explore the ship, the plantes, the cities...but if I have a factory burning with people stuck on the inside, I want to see a freekin timer. Gives a sense of urgency which gives a challenge and improves a gamplay.

Yes this is true, but I still wouldn't want to see any timers in Mass Effect.



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rocketpig said:
disolitude said:

I rented mass effect 1 for an hour and didn't like it, but I picked up Mass Effect 2 after everyone and their dog telling me that action has been greatly improved. I spent about 14 hours with Mass Effect 2 thus far and while it is an improved experience for the action junkie, I find it still somewhat lacking.

It seems to me like Bioware must not have played Contra, Doom, Quake, Vectorman or any classic twitch action game as they have no clue how to generate tension in their action set pieces. Furthermore, the set pieces are 1/10th as imaginative as the best stuff found in some other games. Remember the last level of Half Life 2 Episode 2...with the tripods coming and defending the base etc. Well there isn't anything as engaging and tense in Mass Effect 2...not even close.

It almost looks like they miss the chances to make action gameplay more intense on purpose too. One of the missions involves traveling to a planet to help Zaid sort out some old grudge with an ex partner. There you find an option to save workers stuck in a burning factory complex. This situation would be 10X more fun, if it actually had a timer before factory explodes. that way you'd have to hurry up and shoot fast and quickly figure out where to go and what to do. Instead you get to strol through the burning factory without a care in the world...shooting enemies at leasure, powering up your weapons...etc.

I am not saying the game is not good as it clearly is an amazing package. I just wish the action elements were better...as they have no reason not to be.

Not to be a contrarian but ME2 is NOT an action game. It's an RPG, which means they can't make everything twitch-based lest they alienate the traditional RPG base.

And timers? ME2 has several segments that are timed. You obviously didn't play the game long enough. There are even segments of the game where the outcome can be altered based on how long you take, only BioWare DIDN'T provide the gamer with a timer. That created some seriously intense gaming moments during the last hour.

Oh please, everything I've seen, and everything the developers have said have all pointed to Mass Effect 2 being more of an action game.  The RPG elements have reportedly been streamlined, and they have added a lot of elements that action gamers wanted.

I'm a HUGE fan of Deus Ex.  It is an FPS/RPG hybrid.  And I will also be the first to admit that the game was a horrible FPS.

I can't believe how many people are trying to make excuses by hiding behind the fact that it's a hybrid that does one part well, and one part maybe not so well.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2010/jan/17/microsoft-games

"What we have done is focus on the shooter aspects more. We wanted to make it more visceral. We did this because we wanted to open up the audience to gamers who like Gears of War or Modern Warfare and introduce them to a genre that they may normally ignore. The upshot of this is they may notice the great things about Bioware games such as believable characters and great stories. If you can convince them that this is a fantastic shooter but then they will discover that there is so much more to Mass Effect 2 than that."



It's a pretty heavy shooter game but you also have to realize that concessions have to be made for the RPG crowd. The auto-aim and generally, relaxed feel of parts of the game were surely created to appease those who don't drink 14 gallons of Mountain Dew a day and can press an LT-A-B button combo while strafing in .000002 seconds.

The game isn't perfect, I'll admit that. But I can see why they eased off on the extreme shooter elements earlier in the game. Not only does it let less experienced players get into the game (some of us have to remember just how many video games each of us have played over the years) but then it allows the action to get REALLY intense near the end because they haven't used up that gameplay trick by throwing it at the player 140 times before that point.

Remember that some tricks are best used for the climax of the game and if the developer uses it too much before that point, it will become stale to the player and the intensity of the game's ending could be lost.




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CGI-Quality said:
I think some of you are being too harsh with his opinion. He didn't say it was a bad game, he said the 'action' part of the game could use some work, in his opinion. Now, I DO think the controls have been vastly improved for this sequel, but I can also understand the gripes with some of it. It isn't completely flawless, but it isn't terrible either.

Either way disolitude, at least you gave it a chance. I remember when you weren't even going to do that

Oh and Im glad I did. It is really good. Like I love mining for resources...and people say thats the boring part.

My gf thinks I'm nuts when I just stand there and ponder on choice decisions...lol.



rocketpig said:
It's a pretty heavy shooter game but you also have to realize that concessions have to be made for the RPG crowd. The auto-aim and generally, relaxed feel of parts of the game were surely created to appease those who don't drink 14 gallons of Mountain Dew a day and can press an LT-A-B button combo while strafing in .000002 seconds.

The game isn't perfect, I'll admit that. But I can see why they eased off on the extreme shooter elements earlier in the game. Not only does it let less experienced players get into the game (some of us have to remember just how many video games each of us have played over the years) but then it allows the action to get REALLY intense near the end because they haven't used up that gameplay trick by throwing it at the player 140 times before that point.

Remember that some tricks are best used for the climax of the game and if the developer uses it too much before that point, it will become stale to the player and the intensity of the game's ending could be lost.

This is probably the most level headed response to the OP yet.



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bobobologna said:
rocketpig said:
It's a pretty heavy shooter game but you also have to realize that concessions have to be made for the RPG crowd. The auto-aim and generally, relaxed feel of parts of the game were surely created to appease those who don't drink 14 gallons of Mountain Dew a day and can press an LT-A-B button combo while strafing in .000002 seconds.

The game isn't perfect, I'll admit that. But I can see why they eased off on the extreme shooter elements earlier in the game. Not only does it let less experienced players get into the game (some of us have to remember just how many video games each of us have played over the years) but then it allows the action to get REALLY intense near the end because they haven't used up that gameplay trick by throwing it at the player 140 times before that point.

Remember that some tricks are best used for the climax of the game and if the developer uses it too much before that point, it will become stale to the player and the intensity of the game's ending could be lost.

This is probably the most level headed response to the OP yet.

Which is simply an expanded version of why I said it's not an action game. Sure, there are action elements but BioWare has to make the game accessible to everyone, not just the gaming freaks who can beat Halo on Legendary in four hours.




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

rocketpig said:
bobobologna said:
rocketpig said:
It's a pretty heavy shooter game but you also have to realize that concessions have to be made for the RPG crowd. The auto-aim and generally, relaxed feel of parts of the game were surely created to appease those who don't drink 14 gallons of Mountain Dew a day and can press an LT-A-B button combo while strafing in .000002 seconds.

The game isn't perfect, I'll admit that. But I can see why they eased off on the extreme shooter elements earlier in the game. Not only does it let less experienced players get into the game (some of us have to remember just how many video games each of us have played over the years) but then it allows the action to get REALLY intense near the end because they haven't used up that gameplay trick by throwing it at the player 140 times before that point.

Remember that some tricks are best used for the climax of the game and if the developer uses it too much before that point, it will become stale to the player and the intensity of the game's ending could be lost.

This is probably the most level headed response to the OP yet.

Which is simply an expanded version of why I said it's not an action game. Sure, there are action elements but BioWare has to make the game accessible to everyone, not just the gaming freaks who can beat Halo on Legendary in four hours.

I see, so this is where we differ.  To me, Mass Effect 1, and from what I've seen and read, Mass Effect 2 are TPS/RPG hybrids.  I guess you just see it as a straight up RPG.

EDIT:  Let me clarify.  If a game is trying to incorporate two different genres together, obviously concessions are going to be made.  And obviously some elements are likely to suffer.  The key is to accept the game as a whole.  But I think it's also valid to criticize certain elements of the game that maybe aren't up to par with other games that are focused solely on one aspect of the gameplay.  Mass Effect 2 is undoubtedly great as a whole, but I think it's entirely reasonable to criticize Mass Effect 2 for failing in some areas as a shooter.

EDIT 2:  And for further clarification, it seems like being a hybrid gives Mass Effect 2 an excuse for not being an excellent shooter.  When you said that it wasn't an action game, you were giving an excuse.  When you detailed why the shooter elements might not have been great, you gave a REASON.



It's primarily an RPG. Almost every game is some kind of hybrid nowadays. At some point in the development cycle, every developer has to make a decision on what their focus for the game is going to be and in ME2's case, I think it's clearly the RPG genre. With that comes the need for concessions to other genres and their style of play.

Sure, WE might like a game like that but for the 98% of gamers who don't aggressively play 30+ games a year and have thousands of hours logged into both shooters and action games, the game would probably become absurdly difficult to play and almost impossible to control. I had casual gaming friends who had problems with the original ME on the normal difficulty setting. Developers have to keep those people in mind when they drop $20m or more on making a game.




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Naum said:
I HATE timers they ruin the fun I hate it.

It's an actionrpg.. if you want more action by another game, thay make way to many of those.

What about the exploding floating Island?  I mean... waiting for shadow is TENSE.



bobobologna said:
rocketpig said:
bobobologna said:
rocketpig said:
It's a pretty heavy shooter game but you also have to realize that concessions have to be made for the RPG crowd. The auto-aim and generally, relaxed feel of parts of the game were surely created to appease those who don't drink 14 gallons of Mountain Dew a day and can press an LT-A-B button combo while strafing in .000002 seconds.

The game isn't perfect, I'll admit that. But I can see why they eased off on the extreme shooter elements earlier in the game. Not only does it let less experienced players get into the game (some of us have to remember just how many video games each of us have played over the years) but then it allows the action to get REALLY intense near the end because they haven't used up that gameplay trick by throwing it at the player 140 times before that point.

Remember that some tricks are best used for the climax of the game and if the developer uses it too much before that point, it will become stale to the player and the intensity of the game's ending could be lost.

This is probably the most level headed response to the OP yet.

Which is simply an expanded version of why I said it's not an action game. Sure, there are action elements but BioWare has to make the game accessible to everyone, not just the gaming freaks who can beat Halo on Legendary in four hours.

I see, so this is where we differ.  To me, Mass Effect 1, and from what I've seen and read, Mass Effect 2 are TPS/RPG hybrids.  I guess you just see it as a straight up RPG.

EDIT:  Let me clarify.  If a game is trying to incorporate two different genres together, obviously concessions are going to be made.  And obviously some elements are likely to suffer.  The key is to accept the game as a whole.  But I think it's also valid to criticize certain elements of the game that maybe aren't up to par with other games that are focused solely on one aspect of the gameplay.  Mass Effect 2 is undoubtedly great as a whole, but I think it's entirely reasonable to criticize Mass Effect 2 for failing in some areas as a shooter.

EDIT 2:  And for further clarification, it seems like being a hybrid gives Mass Effect 2 an excuse for not being an excellent shooter.  When you said that it wasn't an action game, you were giving an excuse.  When you detailed why the shooter elements might not have been great, you gave a REASON.

It's fair to criticize anything but my point is that the "weaknesses" of the game need to be put into context. No game can be everything to everyone and that's my problem with the OP's post. In a fantasy world, ME2 would be Gears of War on Insane mixed with Deus Ex mixed with the best elements of Fallout.

Reality has different restrictions. No way can a developer make that game, which kind of invalidates complaining about what is generally a strong TPS/action experience melded into an extraordinary RPG game.




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/