Cypher1980 said: Millennium said: I used to, many moons ago. Then I came to my senses and stopped stealing. I've since either destroyed anything I pirated or sought out legit copies, and while I'm not finished with that second task yet (there's a lot of work to do, and some of them have gotten very hard to find) I'd like to think that I've made good progress. Pirating digitally is stealing ?

Yes, yes it is.

The way that copyright fundamentally works is that any copy made of a work belongs, initially, to the rightsholder. They can do whatever they want with it -license it out, sell it, destroy it, or whatever- but it is theirs. If you make a copy and do not have some sort of arrangement with them or some other legitimate right (i.e. backup, installation, time-shifting, compatibility, or the handful of other very specific acts collectively known as "fair use"), then you must render it up to them immediately, or else you have stolen that copy.

Piracy is theft, plain and simple. "Making a copy" does not prevent this; in fact, that copy what makes it theft in the first place. Pirates are nothing more than common thieves.

It's copyright infringement, legally it's not stealing. Not that morally I think it's much different, companies develop software to make money from sold copies, not to always have their own copy and to worry that one is going to get stolen and they wouldn't have it anymore.

Kirameo said: dunno001 said: That is not piracy, as while your friend is borrowing the game, it deprives you of the ability to play it. There was one license sold, and one copy existing for it. This is fine (even if a few companies may want to say otherwise). What would be piracy is if you made a copy of it for your friend, as your one license now can be used twice concurrently. I assume that Canada also has something like the US's version of right to resell? Loaning it is selling it for $0, with the intent that it will be sold back to you at a later time for $0. Weird wording, I know, but it does allow it to fall into the fair use part. The used games market argueably hurts the industry more than piracy.   If I buy a physical copy that is used (meaning that the company doesn't benefit from it) I'm sure I would most likely buy a new copy (benefiting the company) if there was not an used one. In the other hand, someone who pirates most likely would not buy the game if he could not pirate it.

I'm not going to the used market, as, unlike piracy, used games are legal to buy, and for every argument against, there's one for. That's something that nobody's going to agree on. And let's be honest- if someone traded in a game after a week, that means it wasn't worth keeping to them. As for buying habits, that's also going to vary from person to person. I have a roommate who used to pirate stuff, that has stopped of free will, and is trying to buy legit physical copies of everything he ever pirated. Conversely, I'm also trying to talk the other roommate into not getting FF13 at all, or, if she insists, waiting to get a used copy. (I expect used copies to start showing up about 2 days after release.)

Millennium said: Cypher1980 said: Millennium said: I used to, many moons ago. Then I came to my senses and stopped stealing. I've since either destroyed anything I pirated or sought out legit copies, and while I'm not finished with that second task yet (there's a lot of work to do, and some of them have gotten very hard to find) I'd like to think that I've made good progress. Pirating digitally is stealing ? Yes, yes it is. The way that copyright fundamentally works is that any copy made of a work belongs, initially, to the rightsholder. They can do whatever they want with it -license it out, sell it, destroy it, or whatever- but it is theirs. If you make a copy and do not have some sort of arrangement with them or some other legitimate right (i.e. backup, installation, time-shifting, compatibility, or the handful of other very specific acts collectively known as "fair use"), then you must render it up to them immediately, or else you have stolen that copy. Piracy is theft, plain and simple. "Making a copy" does not prevent this; in fact, that copy what makes it theft in the first place. Pirates are nothing more than common thieves.

The world is truly an evil place. About your progress; as long as you still have any type of pirated software or files on your harddrive's, I don't really find your index finger and arguments that compelling.

Millennium said: Cypher1980 said: Millennium said: I used to, many moons ago. Then I came to my senses and stopped stealing. I've since either destroyed anything I pirated or sought out legit copies, and while I'm not finished with that second task yet (there's a lot of work to do, and some of them have gotten very hard to find) I'd like to think that I've made good progress. Pirating digitally is stealing ? Yes, yes it is. The way that copyright fundamentally works is that any copy made of a work belongs, initially, to the rightsholder. They can do whatever they want with it -license it out, sell it, destroy it, or whatever- but it is theirs. If you make a copy and do not have some sort of arrangement with them or some other legitimate right (i.e. backup, installation, time-shifting, compatibility, or the handful of other very specific acts collectively known as "fair use"), then you must render it up to them immediately, or else you have stolen that copy. Piracy is theft, plain and simple. "Making a copy" does not prevent this; in fact, that copy what makes it theft in the first place. Pirates are nothing more than common thieves.

I had no idea it was so serious. But if so why not just convict the pirates for theft in the courts. Its a much more serious offence than copyright infringement.

The message would then be loud and clear that piracy is a serious crime.

Only songs on limewire like everyone else. I don't pirate games or programs or anything.

ph4nt said: Sometimes its easier to pirate than it is to go through all the security and anti-piracy things to legitimately buy the product and install it.

It's just like that joke video.

 

Where a guy shows himself buying a legitimate DVD then getting the anti piracy message and explaining.

 

Well this makes sense... So pirating a movie saves you time while those who support the industry get raped.

dunno001 said: Kirameo said: dunno001 said: That is not piracy, as while your friend is borrowing the game, it deprives you of the ability to play it. There was one license sold, and one copy existing for it. This is fine (even if a few companies may want to say otherwise). What would be piracy is if you made a copy of it for your friend, as your one license now can be used twice concurrently. I assume that Canada also has something like the US's version of right to resell? Loaning it is selling it for $0, with the intent that it will be sold back to you at a later time for $0. Weird wording, I know, but it does allow it to fall into the fair use part. The used games market argueably hurts the industry more than piracy.   If I buy a physical copy that is used (meaning that the company doesn't benefit from it) I'm sure I would most likely buy a new copy (benefiting the company) if there was not an used one. In the other hand, someone who pirates most likely would not buy the game if he could not pirate it. I'm not going to the used market, as, unlike piracy, used games are legal to buy, and for every argument against, there's one for. That's something that nobody's going to agree on. And let's be honest- if someone traded in a game after a week, that means it wasn't worth keeping to them. As for buying habits, that's also going to vary from person to person. I have a roommate who used to pirate stuff, that has stopped of free will, and is trying to buy legit physical copies of everything he ever pirated. Conversely, I'm also trying to talk the other roommate into not getting FF13 at all, or, if she insists, waiting to get a used copy. (I expect used copies to start showing up about 2 days after release.)

But why would you get an used copy? I mean, it's almost the same thing as piracy because the company does not receive money and you get the game. The difference is that you are getting a physical copy (while pirats do not) and the seller of the game gets benefited.

Kirameo said: dunno001 said: Gilgamesh said: Here's another way of looking at pirating, technically the thing that's being pirated is just being shared not stolen, because in order for it to be pirated in the first place someone must of bought it. If I let a friend borrow a game I own is that not pirating? That is not piracy, as while your friend is borrowing the game, it deprives you of the ability to play it. There was one license sold, and one copy existing for it. This is fine (even if a few companies may want to say otherwise). What would be piracy is if you made a copy of it for your friend, as your one license now can be used twice concurrently. I assume that Canada also has something like the US's version of right to resell? Loaning it is selling it for $0, with the intent that it will be sold back to you at a later time for $0. Weird wording, I know, but it does allow it to fall into the fair use part. The used games market argueably hurts the industry more than piracy.   If I buy a physical copy that is used (meaning that the company doesn't benefit from it) I'm sure I would most likely buy a new copy (benefiting the company) if there was not an used one. In the other hand, someone who pirates most likely would not buy the game if he could not pirate it.

The used games industry doesn't hurt the industry at all, because the industry has no right to prevent resale. This works exactly like any physical product: if you buy, for example, a couch, the maker of the couch cannot prevent you from reselling it, even if that might "deprive" the maker of a further sale. No one would argue that this hurts the furniture industry, which faces far greater manufacturing costs than the game industry does; therefore it does not hurt the game industry either.

The entire point of the first-sale doctrine is, much like the rest of copyright, an attempt to make buying and selling intellectual property as similar as possible to buying and selling physical property, and that is why resale is fair use. But this also extends further: a furniture maker cannot prevent resale, but it (and its associated stores) can take steps to prevent theft, which does hurt the industry, just as the theft of games does.

-ku- said: ph4nt said: Sometimes its easier to pirate than it is to go through all the security and anti-piracy things to legitimately buy the product and install it. It's just like that joke video.   Where a guy shows himself buying a legitimate DVD then getting the anti piracy message and explaining.   Well this makes sense... So pirating a movie saves you time while those who support the industry get raped.

Indeed... I mean, I know several people who buy games and then download the illegal versions afterwards, because they don't hassle you all the time.