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Forums - Gaming Discussion - IGN ranks Final Fantasy series

Kasz216 said:

Nothing you've said here has actually disproven my point, and only shows your general defensiveness about it.

You can be defensive, but more experience is more expierence.  There really isn't anything else to say about it.


If you take two perfectly equal people and have 1 play them in order at the time of release, and the other not play them in order.

The one who plays the games in order is the one who will be more expierenced and be able to give a better opinion.

This is generally undeniable.

As such, you would need to prove that the people who started at 7 and beyond were somehow superior inherently to deny the advantage of having played the Final Fantasy games at time of release.

This of course is a claim that makes no sense.

As such, expierence generally wins out.  As for "nostalgia glasses"... these are videogames.  All one needs to do to see if they have nostalgia glasses or not is replay the game and see how it holds up.  Most games that were actually great when you played them will still hold up today, unless what made them great was some sort of industry defining thing that was later copied and improved upon or replaced later.

 

It really does say something that very few people who have played 6 before 7 think 7 is better... and that very few people who played 7 before 10 think 10 is better.

Also, that nobody thinks FF1 is the best FF ever.  FF1 actually being my First Final Fantasy.

Second Console RPG behind Dragon Warrior.

If I'm defensive, it's because I'm getting told that my opinion is worth less than yours. Some people find that kind of thing annoying :3

And nothing I said was meant to disprove your point explicitly; it was meant to show you what is wrong with the approach you are using. We agree that people who played 6 before 7 tend to prefer 6 and vice versa, but we put forward different reasons as to why (mine wasn't entirely serious...); in one scenario, it is the FF7 fans whose opinion is worth less, in another, it is that of the FF6 fans. They're both equally valid arguments, but people reject the one that contradicts their hypothesis; the one that supports their hypothesis will be very convincing. Your hypothesis is that people who prefer my favourite game to your favourite have impaired judgement, so it's only natural that you won't see what's wrong with the argument that supports your idea but you will see what's wrong with the argument that contradicts it.

The point is...

It's easy to find a group of people who will, by and large, agree with you, and it's easy to think of reasons why that group's opinions should be privileged. It's so easy that someone who thinks the opposite can do it just as well. Most likely, both parties will be partly right, insofar as they are right that the bias they are pointing out actually exists. It's just that there are different biases that go the other way as well, and that cancel it out to some extent. If you really wanted to (you'd need to have far to much time on your hands, mind you), I'm sure you could identify a group of people for each of the FF games that is more likely to favour it and think of a reason why that group's opinion should be taken more seriously than others. Maybe then you'd see what's wrong with this line of argumentation; all it does is show one's own bias in believing that x, the thing that makes group y's opinion more valid than group z's in one respect is more important than w, the thing that makes group x's opinion more valid than group z's.

Also, I think you vastly over-estimate the importance of playing games in the "right" order. It's just as likely that people simply prefer the one they played first, especially when it comes to games that create such a strong emotional connection with their fans and inspire such loyalty. It's just as likely that people who played 6 first made that emotional connection and found it hard to open themselves up to another story and set of characters. Any discrepancy between the proportion of people who played 6 first and ended up liking 7 more and the proportion who played 7 and ended up liking 6 can easily be explained by pointing out that the older games had a smaller and more "devoted" fanbase and that the mass popularity and acclaim of 7 (as well as the fact that Square jumped ship from Nintendo to Sony) created a great deal of resentment towards 7 before it had even come out (maybe you don't feel it, but an awful lot of people do). 7 would have to be massively superior, to the extent that comparing the two games would be a joke, for it to overcome this and convert even half of the fans who started off by loving 6.

I'm sorry to resurrect this thread with another tl;dr (that will probably get ignored anyway), but I haven't posted here for a couple of days and I have great trouble letting things like this go :3



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They aren't equally valid points.

Your just wrong. Your opinion is worth less... because it's less of an expert opinion. It may be annoying to you, but it's just the truth. My opinion is going to be worth less then someone who's watched way more basketball that i have in order... because the different eras of basketball have changed... but in a less significant way then videogames.

If this was anything but Final Fantasy to which you were attached you would agree in this.

Additionally largely you aren't arguing with people who "played FF6 first".

Your arguing with people who played FF1 or FF4 first.

Also, playing the stories in order to get "attached" to one or the other is part of needing to play them in order. Since many story events and game aspects are recycled from game to game and credit has to be given to the correct game for originating said aspects.

For example. People treat the death of Aerith as a HUGE deal, when in reality it was a very common thing in a Final Fantasy game. Such a thing wasn't really going to surprise a Final Fantasy veteran.

Additionally playing the games in the right order is of MONUMENTAL importance, as the difference between 2D and 3D games is extremely vast. Like say the difference between silent and modern movies.



In the end though... your points just aren't valid for two simpler reasons.

1) All things equal, it is more important to play the games in order. Something you've never dismissed.

2) All the things you've mentioned that could bias someone who's played FF6... could also bias someone who's played FF7 first. Once again, making all things equal in this point.

You may not like it, and it may annoy you... however, it's just true.  Sometimes the truth is annoying.



I'm starting to feel that I'm getting trolled, so I'll stop trying to argue at this point.

Anyway, on the off chance that you're being honest...

I suggest first of all that you take some reading classes, since you completely miss the point of what I've been saying. (Also, some writing classes might make it seem less amusing when you talk about "expert opinions")

I also suggest that you try to get over the fact that your favourite game isn't the most popular. When you seriously argue that some people's opinions are worth less than yours (conveniently, people who are likely to disagree with you), you come across as very desperate and unable to cope with reality. Accept that your favourite game isn't objectively better and that people who disagree with you might be just as well informed as you are (if not better informed); this obsession with playing games in the right order is just clutching very hard at at some very weak straws. You should also accept that the popularity of your favourite video game isn't that important and stop making such a big deal about it; your favourite video game's popularity isn't something you should take so...personally. A lot of people seem to live vicariously through their favourite game or console, as if its success reflects upon them in some way. It's disturbing.



I will always count FF I as the best. It was my first major RPG experience and I can still sit down for a decent 20+ hours on it.
Not even VI or VII compares to it in my opinion. It is too good of a game and is based on D&D rules. I still like limited use of each spell level to be superior to MP's.



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Raistline said:
I will always count FF I as the best. It was my first major RPG experience and I can still sit down for a decent 20+ hours on it.
Not even VI or VII compares to it in my opinion. It is too good of a game and is based on D&D rules. I still like limited use of each spell level to be superior to MP's.

:3

I really liked FFI; the storyline obviously isn't anything to write home about, but the gameplay is brilliant.



Kudistos Megistos said:

I'm starting to feel that I'm getting trolled, so I'll stop trying to argue at this point.

Anyway, on the off chance that you're being honest...

I suggest first of all that you take some reading classes, since you completely miss the point of what I've been saying. (Also, some writing classes might make it seem less amusing when you talk about "expert opinions")

I also suggest that you try to get over the fact that your favourite game isn't the most popular. When you seriously argue that some people's opinions are worth less than yours (conveniently, people who are likely to disagree with you), you come across as very desperate and unable to cope with reality. Accept that your favourite game isn't objectively better and that people who disagree with you might be just as well informed as you are (if not better informed); this obsession with playing games in the right order is just clutching very hard at at some very weak straws. You should also accept that the popularity of your favourite video game isn't that important and stop making such a big deal about it; your favourite video game's popularity isn't something you should take so...personally. A lot of people seem to live vicariously through their favourite game or console, as if its success reflects upon them in some way. It's disturbing.

Once again your reading in, because of your massive bias into the topic and trying to make it about something it isn't because you know your points have no merit.  Hence the insults... you know your arguements just don't hold up.

Some people have actually played all the Final Fantasy games in order and do like FF7 better.  Their opinion matters more then yours as well... it has nothing better to do with "which game most people like better."  Hell, the Final Fantasy I like best I don't even think is the best Final Fantasy.  Cause I have something called objectivity.  I can recognize the difference between "best" and "what i like best."  

Whether something I like best is the best or not doesn't really matter.  My favorite movie is "Brewster's Millions."  I know it's not the "best movie of all time" nor even "the best Richard Pryor movie."

All things equal, the person with more expierence has an opinion worth more.  Its really that simple.


Would you, or would you not agree that someone who grew up with Silent films, and then moved on with the technology to films with sound, is a better judge of movies then somebody equal who first listened to movies with sound, and went back and watched silent movies?

You would right?  All things equal?  In doing so, you've lost the argument.  In not doing so, your being intellectually dishonest with yourself.



Kudistos Megistos said:

I'm starting to feel that I'm getting trolled, so I'll stop trying to argue at this point.

Anyway, on the off chance that you're being honest...

I suggest first of all that you take some reading classes, since you completely miss the point of what I've been saying. (Also, some writing classes might make it seem less amusing when you talk about "expert opinions")

 

Dude.  Look at his post count.  Look at how many VGChartz dollars he has.  Look at the games he owns.  Look at his friends list.  Then compare those things to your stats.  And you are starting to feel that you are being trolled, seriously?



 

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very nice



FreeTalkLive said:
Kudistos Megistos said:

I'm starting to feel that I'm getting trolled, so I'll stop trying to argue at this point.

Anyway, on the off chance that you're being honest...

I suggest first of all that you take some reading classes, since you completely miss the point of what I've been saying. (Also, some writing classes might make it seem less amusing when you talk about "expert opinions")

 

Dude.  Look at his post count.  Look at how many VGChartz dollars he has.  Look at the games he owns.  Look at his friends list.  Then compare those things to your stats.  And you are starting to feel that you are being trolled, seriously?

To be fair i do just accept anyone who sends me a friend request, because... I don't really care about friends lists.


To further expand on the Final Fantasy differences though... there are pretty much 4 different eras of Final Fantasy.

 

FF1-3 - The beggining, due to limited cart sizes, a lot of the story had to be basic or in the manual.  It was based highly on gameplat.

FF4-6 - Due to SNES cartridges, storytelling was able to be told in full.  Therefore, those starting with FF4 are going to have a hard time appreciating FF's before it as it was.  Seeing those Final Fantasy games as "games with bad/no story." 

Which... they weren't.  FF 1-3 did have quite good stories.  It's just a lot of it was tied through the instruction manuals and having to "work for it" through expanding the concise sentences.  Final Fantasy still had graphics limitations, as such it's characters often have wildly flailing reactions to stuff.  Much like how camera limitations made it so that in the silent film era... people needed to wildly flail to show emotion to people in the backrow. (credit to Rubang for that bit of information.)

FF7-10 - 3D FF.  Final Fantasy as people know it today.  People who started at 7-10 are likely to not be able to full appreciate the stories of 4-6 because the sprite characters are harder for people to take seriously with full 3-D realistic models.  As such, the story is hurt.   In addition, starting in this era all games that don't have realistic looking people in general have goteen harder to appreciate.  Such models also make the gameplay a bit harder to grasp for some.  The stark contrast between the animated little guys, and awesomly drawn monsters can be offputting.


FF11-FF13V - The new gameplay era.  People starting in this era are going to find it very hard to appreciate earlier games... espiecally those who start with 13... why?  The gamplay is going to be different... a more liveaction set that will make the turn based battles seem slow and crappy by comparison.  You can see this in general with more and more growing complaints about the turn based system in JRPGs already.  With Final Fantasy abandoning it... it's going to get much "worse".

 

 

Playing them all in the right order at time of release lets you put things in the right mindset to play each game.  Many people now couldn't sit through a silent movie, they'd find it silly and boring because of the wild flailing and the dialoge either being short or most of it being up to viewer interpretation.

Back during the silent movie era however... they were eaisly watched by pretty much anybody... and those people who watched silent movies, by and large had no problem moving to modern movies.


Put up the best silent movie vs a mediocre modern movie... and in most modern peoples minds the modern movie is going to be the ebest.

Do the same for someone who grew up during the silent movie era and transitioned over... or not even grew up, but just was present for that era and this era... and it's going to be different... because they have a mindset to fully appreciate both types of movies.

 

Heck, the same could be said for movies of the 80's.  Which used to use much longer cuts and takes then todays snappy fast paced shooting.  Suddenly no more dead scenes.

A lot of reason some people don't like the Godfather 1&2 is that they linger on scenes that people don't linger on anymore.