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Forums - Sales Discussion - Does the Wii prove that the HD razor/blade model is flawed?

Kasz216 on 29 December 2009
bdbdbd said:
@Alephnull: Ok, you're obviously looking it from a context "half the price, four times the demand"? This has certain unrelevancies, because we are looking at products, that one is sold at a loss and another sold at profit.

@Kasz & Theprof: CBHD isn't that much of competing with BD, as it is China wanting to control the video format it's using.
If HD-DVD had won, we would still be seeing CBHD, because the winning format is automatically largely controlled by Hollywood (this was what the "format war" was about). BD doesn't offer a gateway for chinese production abroad, but it does offer a gateway for Hollywood production to China.

Since China is Stalinistic country, in other words governmental capitalism, it's going to be meddling with everything that happens in the domestic market.

How would we be seeing CBHD when the only reason it's around is HD-DVD technology?

The Chinese have no problems letting foreign products in as long as you follow their rules.

The issue with DVD and why they stated they were going after the format was that the format costed a lot of chinese manufactuers money.

To compete they had to undercut costs and ended up taking losses rather then gains... until DVD pricing hit cheaper levels.





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theprof00 on 29 December 2009
Kasz216 said:

Dude, don't get mad because your arguments don't hold up.

You can get mad if you'd like... but it'd be better if you stopped looking at things like the world is a giant conspiracy against Sony.  You're taking this thing far too seriously for some reason.  You should look at things without bias and realize why things happened like they did.


Think about things logically. Development of CBHD began in 2005? Right? Before the format war was ended correct?  Where either could win?

Why was this. Because Blu-ray had unreasonable licensing. Had HD-DVD won after do you think CBHD would of showed up? No.

There would only be HD-DVD. Including in China. Why is that? Because China is conspiring with Toshiba against Sony? No. It's because Blu-ray had unreasonable licensing costs while HD-DVD did not.

 

The problem was.  Blu-ray prices started out way too high and they weren't willing to give assurances that liscensing costs would be reasonable.

OK

Toshiba develops HDDVD,

BR is released

Format war begins

Toshiba helps in the development CBHD along with Chinese scientists

Toshiba develops S-DVD

BR wins format war

Toshiba releases S-DVD

China releases CBHD

 

let's cut out that third to last line;

 

HDDVD wins format war

Toshiba releases S-DVD?

China cancels CBHD...even though it's still a hundred times cheaper than HDDVD.

 

If anything, I don't see your logic. This argument doesn't hold up.

I am not coming from a biased perspective. I am just getting tired of repeating myself. It's not a conspiracy, and I never said it was, you're putting words in my mouth and intent where there is none. This is simply how it is.

Sony won the format war and Toshiba has a technology that they invested billions in and they want to make their money back. That's it.

CBHD is probably already cracked as well, whereas BR is still not. Decidedly another big factor to consider.

 

 



bdbdbd on 29 December 2009

@Kasz: Why didn't China pick HD-DVD out of the box then?



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

Kasz216 on 29 December 2009
theprof00 said:
Kasz216 said:

Dude, don't get mad because your arguments don't hold up.

You can get mad if you'd like... but it'd be better if you stopped looking at things like the world is a giant conspiracy against Sony.  You're taking this thing far too seriously for some reason.  You should look at things without bias and realize why things happened like they did.


Think about things logically. Development of CBHD began in 2005? Right? Before the format war was ended correct?  Where either could win?

Why was this. Because Blu-ray had unreasonable licensing. Had HD-DVD won after do you think CBHD would of showed up? No.

There would only be HD-DVD. Including in China. Why is that? Because China is conspiring with Toshiba against Sony? No. It's because Blu-ray had unreasonable licensing costs while HD-DVD did not.

 

The problem was.  Blu-ray prices started out way too high and they weren't willing to give assurances that liscensing costs would be reasonable.

OK

Toshiba develops HDDVD,

BR is released

Format war begins

Toshiba helps in the development CBHD along with Chinese scientists

Toshiba develops S-DVD

BR wins format war

Toshiba releases S-DVD

China releases CBHD

 

let's cut out that third to last line;

 

HDDVD wins format war

Toshiba releases S-DVD?

China cancels CBHD...even though it's still a hundred times cheaper than HDDVD.

 

If anything, I don't see your logic. This argument doesn't hold up.

I am not coming from a biased perspective. I am just getting tired of repeating myself. It's not a conspiracy, and I never said it was, you're putting words in my mouth and intent where there is none. This is simply how it is.

Sony won the format war and Toshiba has a technology that they invested billions in and they want to make their money back. That's it.

CBHD is probably already cracked as well, whereas BR is still not. Decidedly another big factor to consider.

 

 

China can't use CBHD because Toshiba doesn't let them if HD-DVD wins.  If Blu-ray announces reasonable structures, China does not invovle itself in a deal that costs them money to develop, which they may not get any benefit from.

Also... Blu-ray is cracked actually... has been for a while.

CBHD's copy protection is superior to blu-rays.

 

You can backup and Blu-ray movie on your computer.

I'm guessing your confused because the PS3 hasn't been cracked.  Which is a different issue all together.



theprof00 on 29 December 2009

The BR crack only exists with computers. You still can't play a BD copy on a BR player, only backup and watch BR movies on PC.

Also, China doesn't recognize foreign patents and trademarks. Toshiba doesn't have any say in the matter.



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Kasz216 on 29 December 2009
theprof00 said:
The BR crack only exists with computers. You still can't play a BD copy on a BR player, only backup and watch BR movies on PC.

Also, China doesn't recognize foreign patents and trademarks. Toshiba doesn't have any say in the matter.

Uh, actually they would have a say in the matter.  Why else do you think they agreed to work with them and give away trade secrets?


I mean, is it your suggestion that Toshiba, back before the format war was decided... back in 2005.  Made a deal with China to give up a lucarive market for no reason?

 

Also, China actually does respect foreign patents enough to comply with WTO laws... and have changed their laws more and more recently to be in line with the global market.

Those previous loopholes you're talking about have actually mostly been closed.  It's partially why CBHD's anti-piracy system is actually harder to crack then Blu-rays.  It's nessisary as they plan to play a bigger and bigger part in the global economy.  China is starting to get tougher on piracy.

 

Additionally, pirated Blu-ray movies are actually on sale that work on Blu-ray players.

The only issue is the cost of blank Blu-ray discs.  So instead they get reencoded and put on DVDs.

http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/11/fake-blu-ray-discs-hatched-in-china-industry-is-concerned.ars



Squilliam on 29 December 2009
alephnull said:

My point in asking about revenue is that it gives us a hint at what demand might be, and that it is relatively independent of cost. When I had to help do a analysis of the Virtalization market for a budget proposal we didn't look at unit sales for ESX. I didn't make this up to troll nintendo. And quite frankly I haven't made up my mind about anything Squilliam said yet.

I think Squilliam will vouch for me when I say that it'll be a cold day in hell when I start trolling on MS's behalf. I honestly think they may have the largest share of the market, in a strategically more important sense than maket share as measure by unit sales.

In an absolute sense revenue does not fully tell us what the demand of a console is because a console manufacturer can be quite aggressive with price cuts to increase overall unit sales whilst overall revenue falls. Now if revenue is falling but unit sales are increasing then you see theres not such a clear correlation between the two, let alone causeation. For example the Iphone probably has the highest demand in the smart-phone industry at the moment but it certainly doesn't have the highest revenue, but it does have the highest profit margin. We can see the level of demand relative to the competition with that metric. When two consoles are similar and the price of one effects the demand for the other the overall demand for that console is limited by the actions of the other console manufacturer.

 



Tease.

Grimes on 29 December 2009

You can't blame everything on the recession. A truly innovative company will thrive in a bad market. Nintendo and Apple are examples of this. Those companies that can't master the market will not do as well.



Anyone can guess. It takes no effort to throw out lots of predictions and have some of them be correct. You are not and wiser or better for having your guesses be right. Even a blind man can hit the bullseye.

bdbdbd on 30 December 2009

@Grimes: Especially when PS3 has increased its sales during the recession.



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

MaxwellGT2000 on 31 December 2009
Squilliam said:
alephnull said:

My point in asking about revenue is that it gives us a hint at what demand might be, and that it is relatively independent of cost. When I had to help do a analysis of the Virtalization market for a budget proposal we didn't look at unit sales for ESX. I didn't make this up to troll nintendo. And quite frankly I haven't made up my mind about anything Squilliam said yet.

I think Squilliam will vouch for me when I say that it'll be a cold day in hell when I start trolling on MS's behalf. I honestly think they may have the largest share of the market, in a strategically more important sense than maket share as measure by unit sales.

In an absolute sense revenue does not fully tell us what the demand of a console is because a console manufacturer can be quite aggressive with price cuts to increase overall unit sales whilst overall revenue falls. Now if revenue is falling but unit sales are increasing then you see theres not such a clear correlation between the two, let alone causeation. For example the Iphone probably has the highest demand in the smart-phone industry at the moment but it certainly doesn't have the highest revenue, but it does have the highest profit margin. We can see the level of demand relative to the competition with that metric. When two consoles are similar and the price of one effects the demand for the other the overall demand for that console is limited by the actions of the other console manufacturer.

 

You've made some good posts as of late I really didn't expect this thread to have such good discussions come from it, since I thought it would be trolled to death.  

Also is the iPhone still the most in demand?  I see a lot of people going for the blackberry and LG phones lately, would be interesting to see numbers on that.



MaxwellGT2000 - "Does the amount of times you beat it count towards how hardcore you are?"

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