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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Is NATAL really any different than play station eye ?

theprof00 on 31 December 2009
Squilliam said:
If the wand is supposed to be released in 3 months time then how come the hype for the thing is so dismally low as to be off the radar? I don't understand this.

I also don't understand how people can discount the utility of having onboard processing power. It means that Gem cannot be as easily tacked onto games this far into the generation as they are already making prodigeous use of the PS3s resources. This is especially true of Sony's 1st party efforts where their present games don't leave much at all to spare and they are the ones who have to hold the torch for that technology.

You've seen RE:alternate edition right?

Iirc they said it was pretty easy to tack on to the game.



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Squilliam on 31 December 2009
theprof00 said:
Squilliam said:
If the wand is supposed to be released in 3 months time then how come the hype for the thing is so dismally low as to be off the radar? I don't understand this.

I also don't understand how people can discount the utility of having onboard processing power. It means that Gem cannot be as easily tacked onto games this far into the generation as they are already making prodigeous use of the PS3s resources. This is especially true of Sony's 1st party efforts where their present games don't leave much at all to spare and they are the ones who have to hold the torch for that technology.

You've seen RE:alternate edition right?

Iirc they said it was pretty easy to tack on to the game.

I have seen a small bit on it. The way I see it with the PS3 is that the performance of the entire system is very fragile and there are many interdependancies. For some code-bases it may be difficult or nigh impossible to shoe-horn an interface given the restraints of budget, time and percieved potential success of add-ons like the Gem. Its one thing for an individual case and another for the entire game industry.



Tease.

theprof00 on 31 December 2009
Squilliam said:
theprof00 said:
Squilliam said:
If the wand is supposed to be released in 3 months time then how come the hype for the thing is so dismally low as to be off the radar? I don't understand this.

I also don't understand how people can discount the utility of having onboard processing power. It means that Gem cannot be as easily tacked onto games this far into the generation as they are already making prodigeous use of the PS3s resources. This is especially true of Sony's 1st party efforts where their present games don't leave much at all to spare and they are the ones who have to hold the torch for that technology.

You've seen RE:alternate edition right?

Iirc they said it was pretty easy to tack on to the game.

I have seen a small bit on it. The way I see it with the PS3 is that the performance of the entire system is very fragile and there are many interdependancies. For some code-bases it may be difficult or nigh impossible to shoe-horn an interface given the restraints of budget, time and percieved potential success of add-ons like the Gem. Its one thing for an individual case and another for the entire game industry.

I'm disappointed that there wasn't even half a joke hidden in there somewhere.....unless it was the entertaining phrase "nigh impossible to shoe-horn"....haha, "nigh"..

I can begrudgingly agree with your response, but it wasn't easy to swallow;needs more sugar.



Squilliam on 31 December 2009
theprof00 said:
Squilliam said:

I have seen a small bit on it. The way I see it with the PS3 is that the performance of the entire system is very fragile and there are many interdependancies. For some code-bases it may be difficult or nigh impossible to shoe-horn an interface given the restraints of budget, time and percieved potential success of add-ons like the Gem. Its one thing for an individual case and another for the entire game industry.

I'm disappointed that there wasn't even half a joke hidden in there somewhere.....unless it was the entertaining phrase "nigh impossible to shoe-horn"....haha, "nigh"..

I can begrudgingly agree with your response, but it wasn't easy to swallow;needs more sugar.

The early PS3s were pretty cute. There was actually measurable differences in performance between consoles and the best guess which was made at the time was that it depended on which SPU was disabled for chip yields. Its a funny system.

Is that better?



Tease.

drkohler on 31 December 2009
Squilliam said:
I also don't understand how people can discount the utility of having onboard processing power. It means that Gem cannot be as easily tacked onto games this far into the generation as they are already making prodigeous use of the PS3s resources.

Huh? The point of the Gem (or whatever its name is) is the simplicity of the interface for games. After all, it has buttons on it (whose states are probably memory mapped) and a glowing ball. You find the center of the glowing ball and integrate a few pixels around the center to calculate distance. You lose an SPU for that, at most (the new Toshiba TVs use 4 SPUs to analyze/scale/improve/whatever the HDTV stream in realtime which is alot more work than finding a glowing spot at the measly eye toy resolution). There is nowhere the complexity of the Natal system in the Sony solution (also obviously Natal is a lot more versatile with its dedicated Gate-Array/Processors - but that comes with a price Sony wasn't willing to pay, apparently).



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ROBOTECHHEAVEN on 31 December 2009

natal is very different and more evolved than the wand or what ever sony is calling it.
i think though that both companies should have used their tech for the ps4 and next xbox, instead of trying to play catch up to nintendo and the wiimote, this gen.



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Xoj on 31 December 2009
IIXShogunXII said:
LordChris915 said:
Cueil said:
LordChris915 said:
Cueil said:
LordChris915 said:
youarebadatgames said:
LordChris915 said:

The way I see it, Natal's advantage is purely software based, its highly likely that as soon as Natal is released, Sony will be able to emulate alot of the tech employed by it, add in the PS3's up and coming 3D capabilities, we could get some really interesting games.

To say that Natal has any hardware advantage would be naive, looking at the Natal camera, there seems to be little or no difference between it and the PSeye, Sony have already said that they are capable of emulating this kind of thing though to a slightly lesser degree. http://www.product-reviews.net/2009/06/07/ps3s-playstation-eye-vs-xbox-360s-natal/

Its all going to be about precisuion vs depth of field, my criticism would be, how many people have enough space to make use of field depth?

Microsoft is a software company, so it's no wonder that Sony this generation has been forced to respond defensively and emulate everything Microsoft has done.  The time that is lost from developing features that your competitor already has puts you behind the curve, and once again MS has taken initiative with the press, dev kits, and release date.  Always responding to your competitor is a bad position to be in (i.e., PSN, Zune, WinMo).  It doesn't really matter if it is different than their competitor as long as the perception is there. 

If Natal enables gesture recognition and turns screens into multitouch surfaces, that's actually pretty useful as I am currently using a multitouch laptop.  Now that I am thinking about it, I'm  inclined to believe this is probably a method for MS to have the public get acquainted with utilizing next gen input recognition that most devices are moving towards anyways (iphones, MS surface/multitouch panels/tablets).

Or you could say that Sony is letting MS test the water before it commits itself to anything big and new, imagine if Sony had followed MS and brough out their console early, they could have had a whole host of RRoD type problems to work out and it could have ended the Playstation wing of Sony FOREVER!

There is sense in pragmatism!

That's retarded... Sony letting Microsoft test the water?  It's not as if Microsoft is standing still or sitting on it laurals while sony keeps emulating all of their features

That sequence of words made no sense to me what so ever, please try and explain whatever it is you are trying to explain in words I can understand this time.

Your comment was retarded... the idea of testing the water because if you wait for someone else to "test the water" you have to play catch up when you find out that the waters are pretty good... Sony isn't going to let Microsoft "test the water" any more you can be sure of that... as for the PS3 coming out early... a simple switch to DVD would have had it coming out on time.

Playing catch up is not a problem if you can release a better product than the competition, without Blu-ray, would Sony eve be in this race? I think not, just look at those new piracy figures, piracy would kill the PS3 and it is Blu-ray that prevents that due to lack of blu-ray burners.

The Ideology driving the Japanese economy comes from a man called Demming, he believed that if you can build a higher quality product, the product will always achieve providing it remains competitive price wise, that is what Sony have set out to do with the PS3, I do not believe we have seen its true potential in terms of hardware or online, I can see Micorsoft beggining to fall behind in terms of hardware, so that is why pragmatism pays off! You will also notice that despite MS early lead, Sony is clawing back the difference with undue haste.

 

Well, in that case you have to play catch-up in sales, for 3 Years.

its actually ahead if u align launches, and if ps3 launched in worldwide in a single month , even with year advance the ps3 would be ahead 1.5 millions. thanks to others and japan.

the thing is eating that year advance will be hard, since 360 was alone selling, ps3 have to compete against it and the wii.

it will take time :p

@about natal.

sony have voice and face regnotion way before microsoft bought the technology. and it's actually really good, the smile shutter works like a charm in most new cybershot cameras.

@squilliam, i dont see a problem with that, SPUs are largely unused. kz2 campaign only uses 2 and the PPU, third party throw everything the gpu and only use the PPU for certain things.

the code managed to use 6  on 32 player grenade fire fights. code could still be optimize.



Squilliam on 31 December 2009
drkohler said:
Squilliam said:
I also don't understand how people can discount the utility of having onboard processing power. It means that Gem cannot be as easily tacked onto games this far into the generation as they are already making prodigeous use of the PS3s resources.

Huh? The point of the Gem (or whatever its name is) is the simplicity of the interface for games. After all, it has buttons on it (whose states are probably memory mapped) and a glowing ball. You find the center of the glowing ball and integrate a few pixels around the center to calculate distance. You lose an SPU for that, at most (the new Toshiba TVs use 4 SPUs to analyze/scale/improve/whatever the HDTV stream in realtime which is alot more work than finding a glowing spot at the measly eye toy resolution). There is nowhere the complexity of the Natal system in the Sony solution (also obviously Natal is a lot more versatile with its dedicated Gate-Array/Processors - but that comes with a price Sony wasn't willing to pay, apparently).

Just the I/O for the camera is an interesting problem to deal with in itself. Uncompressed video from the camera takes up quite a bit of bandwidth and processing by itself. It may sound simple but its not. Theres a reason why Natal does the processing for the camera on site and then transmits the telemetry to the console in a finished state. Even if you could state for certain that every PS3 game has the memory and processing power available to deal with this data, the I/O problem still creeps in.

As far as the cost consideration goes, you would have to consider that Natal has PC, Xbox 360 and TV applications (I have seen a tv demo) so through shipping a large quantity they can bring the cost down and Gem is no slouch as far as cost goes either as you're looking at likely two wands plus a fairly sophisticated camera. They are likely to both cost a fair bit and probably similar in comparison to each other but different in how they expended the resources in their implementation.



Tease.

Squilliam on 31 December 2009

@XOJ many of the developers on Beyond3d have a different interpretation on the resources available on the PS3. Its not just the GPU + PPU because the PS3 could never hope to compete in multiplatform games with the Xbox 360 by utilizing one core and a weaker GPU.

To paraphrase: "Its a few SPUs for comparable CPU performance, its a few SPUs to help the GPU for comparable graphics performance after that there isn't much left"



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.jayderyu on 31 December 2009

Just love to see the rage and but, but, but, but excuses.

Natal is technology that Sony to not advance. Sony beleived there was no future in advancing the "EyeToy". Where as Jhonny from the Wiiremote tracking videos saw more potential in tracking software, but it was the WiiRemote that had the speed processing that EyeToy didn't have. Jhonny last I heard was working at MS.

Sony created a boat and decided to not board it because they were more focused on power.

Natal is the EyeToy+.



Squilliam: On Vgcharts its a commonly accepted practice to twist the bounds of plausibility in order to support your argument or agenda so I think its pretty cool that this gives me the precedent to say whatever I damn well please.