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Forums - Nintendo - Igarashi: DS the only platform in which it's acceptable to publish 2-D games

^Yeah I edited because after seeing it it sounded too arrogant, which is not what I was going for



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

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Avinash_Tyagi said:
Khuutra said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Actually you can have diversity with 2D games, just look at the NES and SNES and handhelds, and only one 3D Zelda has ever passed 2D Zelda.

Its more profitable to make games 2D, you can have more diversity and more games out in a year with 2D, and sales will be on par or even better than 3D, so yeah 3D is pointless

Avinash, the first Zelda is not a proper metric here. It outsold every other 2-D Zelda by 30%, minimum. The 3D vs. 2D sales battle is roughly even, except that Twilight Princess tilts it in favor of 3D


  No OoT is the best argument for 3D, but TP proves the flaw in 3D Zelda, no 3D Zelda will ever equal OoT, but you can be sure TP was more expensive than OoT, and much more than LttP or LOZ 1, for less sales than LOZ 1 and only a bit more than LttP

You're speaking in extremes.  'No 3D Zelda will ever equal OoT.'  'OoT is the perfect argument for a 3D Zelda.'  There's no 'perfect' example of a 2D or 3D game.  See my post above.

Plus, Nintendo isn't the only developer out there.  And as such, Zelda isn't the only series out there that has both 2D and 3D games.  Look at the Metroid series.  It has seen upswings and downswings in its sales between multiple 2D and 3D titles.  And looking at Castlevania (which this thread originally was focused on since it was quoting IGA), the same phenomenon happened with certain titles seeing high sales and certain titles seeing low sales, in both the 2D and 3D field.  There's more factors at play beyond the simple cut and dry 2D and 3D genres.

Avinash_Tyagi said:
Khuutra said:
Avinash let me level this for you.

Do you think that 2-D is going to kill 3-D for Nintendo?

Here's what I think is going to happen, if Galaxy 2, Other M and Zelda Wii sales disappoint, then the next row of games will be 2D, if they do as well or better than the 3D games, then yeah I can see Nintendo putting 3D on the backburner, or even abandoning it, at least on certain franchises

Man, you really don't like 3D games, do you?  And do you have any faith in them at all?

All those games you mentioned are going to do fine.  And while they aren't going to sell as 'well' as say New Super Mario Bros Wii (which will probably sell 15-25 million or something ridiculous), they will sell quite fine.  They're not going to stop making 3D games.  Because they're targeting different audiences with each title.  They're making Mario Galaxy for one type of gamer while they're making New Super Mario Bros Wii for another type.  Do you understand that?

If they simply dropped all 3D development and only made games like New Super Mario Bros, 2D Metroids, 2D Zeldas and, heaven forbid, some kind of 2D Pikmin and Star Fox, etc....I'd be like what Disney did when they dropped all Cel drawn animation in favor of all CGI animation back in 2004.  And that's just stupid.  Nintendo makes multiple kinds of games to appeal to every available audience.  And its been proven that 'western' gamers enjoy 3D games such as Metroid Prime, the 3D Zeldas, and the 3D Mario games.

If they did what you're proposing, they'd be back pettling on the very concept of the Wii, to appeal to all available markets.  As well as lose out on the real 'core' market they have.



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

That comment is just crazy. 'splosion man is on xbox360 and is one of the best 2d games released this year.



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But I'm focusing on Nintendo, and while there have been varying sales for various franchises, the fact is the profit margins on the 2D games are higher, in addition smaller teams and less time are needed to make them, so its more beneficial to the companies to go down the 2D route



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

Avinash_Tyagi said:
Farmageddon said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Majin-Tenshinhan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
^Before they thought that 2D Mario was dead on consoles, which is why Galaxy 2 was even bothered to be made, in case NSMB Wii flopped, now that NSMB Wii is a huge success much more than Galaxy 2 will ever be, they are going to seriously rethink the future of 3D Mario and probably other 3D franchises

No, they are not, because it makes absolutely no sense. And I already told you why.

How does it make no sense?  Now that they see that 2D is viab;e on the home consoles, they'll definitely be looking into it, especially if their 3D sales remain stagnant or decline

3D Marios sell really well. Maybe it's not 2D Mario well, but it's still very good. They also help sell consoles. Nintendo has plenty of franchises which sell well bellow 3D Marios and still get support, so dropping 3D Mario in favour of 2D Mario would only make sense if making both was a bad thing. Since they aren't that similar (well, their core is kind like the same, but still very different games) and there's a market for both, there's no reason why they'd drop 3D Marios.

But if 2D makes more profit and sells more consoles, why have one Galaxy when you can have 2 NSMB's, why have one prime or other M when you can have two super metroids, why an OoT when you can have two LttPs

By your logic we should have 5 Mario Karts, 5 Wii Fits, 5 2D Marios and 5 Wii Sports every generation. Do you really think that would work?

Besides, a single 2D Mario or two well set apart will sell just about as much consoles as twelve 2D Marios. Now, a 3D Mario will sell consoles to other people and that's why it's also important. Let's not forget, either, that these games are supposed to have good legs, so having many of them would just cut their legs off. It would also put pressure on the team to keep coming with new concepts for it all the time, or else the series would get really stale and start plumetting, and this would be sure to damege the games quality in the long run. Really, everyone sees it, can't you even grasp the logic behind what we're saying?



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Avinash_Tyagi said:

^Yes I want to hear why

It comes down to two questions: art and money.

We can drop art as a point of conversation because neither of us is really qualified to talk about video game production in terms of art, and business will trump art in every sense in every case. So we're going to talk business.

The question, then, becomes this: why would it be feasible to continue to produce 3-D games even if 2-D games are universally more popular? We are going to ignore that they continued to produce 2-D games even while 3-D games were considerably more popular, because there were mitigating circumstances surrounding that decision (like the technology for 3-D games being unavailable in the handheld space).

So here is the assumptions we're going to make, based on yoru scenarios: Nintendo has produced new 2-D Marios, Metroids, and Zeldas, and while the 3-D counterparts continue to sell well, the 2-D versions sell better. The whys andh ows don't matter. This is the reality under which we operate. But it still is the case that Nintendo would be better served by continuing to make 3-D games. Why?

The first question is one of cost, because, and this is goign to seem unusual to you, but it is true: 2-D assets become astronomically more expensive as resolution increases, and it's these 2-D assets (like textures) that make so much of 3-D assets more expensive to create. Do you know why NSMBWii uses 3-D models for the characters? The first reason is that they're much, much cheaper than drawing hundreds of different hi-res frames of animation (which would have to look good from a distance and during close-ups at the end of a level, with individual frames skyrocketing the price of the animations), but the second reason is even simpler: rendering 2-D sprites is immensely resource-intensive in comparison to lower-res textures on 3-D models. If you want an example of this, try playing Odin Sphere on the PS2, which can only be faulted in that it was way, waaaay too much for the system to handle, choking the whole thing down to 5 or 10 frames per second from time to time.

Anyway. 2-D assets are not that cheap. Next generation it's going to get worse, because when the next Nintendo system goes HD it's going to have the same expectations for art resolution as the other two systems, and ... well, that difference in resolution is actually why Vanillaware put Muramasa out on the Wii nstead of the HD twins. 2-D art costs are just goign to get higher and higher, and the best they can do in terms of cutting costs will be putting 3-D models in a 2-D field, and that's not going to be any cheaper than jsut doing a 3-D game in terms of art assets, assuming a comparable scale.

Do you know why Mario Galaxy is so much bigger than New Super Mario Bros. Wii? Truth is, it isn't! They have a comparable amount of content in them, in spite of the fact that Super Mario Galaxy is (much, much) longer. Why? Because in a 2-D game, art asset creation is both more expensive and also experienced for a much smaller amount of time than in 3-D. This is one of the big reasons that SEGA doesn't make 3-D Sonic games all about the speed sections: since their pacing is very similar to the 2-D games, they're much more expensive than other 3-D games to make for the same amount of playtime/content created for the player. A game with 2-D gameplay is going to need much, much more content to be as long as a 3-D game unless it's filled with huge, repetetive expanses of nothing, and I don't think we expect that out of Nintendo (first person to make a Wind Waker joke does so at risk of all classiness on his or her part).

In terms of creating content, 2-D and 3-D games do not have that big a cost difference right now, and the cost different is going to become more narrow in the future as 2-D assets become more and more expensive. And no, 2-D level design is not cheaper than 3-D level design, as odd as that is, because content doesn't cost money according to the space that an in-game world operates on.

But, one could argue, this doesn't matter. Even if 2-D games and 3-D games cost exactly the same (which they don't, not yet), 2-D games still sell more, therefore make more profit, therefore make 3-D games defunct.

This is sound reasoning, but it's also not good business sense.

The thing is that Nintendo has several factors they have to consider here in terms of resource allocation.

Firstly, 3-D games and 2-D games serve different audiences. People who buy 3-D Marios and people who buy 2-D Marios are not necessarily the same people, and even though there is a certain amount of overlap, there are also a certain number of people who buy one sort and not the other. In order to serve the biggest audience possible - and increase future profitability through market penetration in anticipation of possible consumer trends - they have to continue to serve both audience, because the whims of thep ublic could swing either way at alomst any time.

But there's more than that, too.

Even if 2-D games were jsut immensely more profitable than 3-D games, enough so to justify abandoning 3-D players altogether, nintendo would need to continue to make 3-D games so that their internal development teams would continue to be productive and produce content that keeps them relevant. Teams that don't make anything cost a tremendous amount of money with no return, so they either have to be working or they have to be fired. Nintendo does not want to shrink. It wants to keep making as many games as possible, so it cann continue to make as much money as possible.

It's not as simpel as moving 3-D producers over to new 2-D projects, either, because producers of 3-D games have specific skillsets that make them more suited to work in that particular field and dimension, and trying to retrain them would be less resource-equivalent than jsut hiring new people who already have 2-D skillsets. You still have the problem of a massive employee turnover rate, which is very bad for the company for many reasons, up to and including the fact that it looks less attractive to potential employees.

But let's assume that doesn't matter. Let's assume that 3-D game designers can be transferred over perfectly, no questions asked, and that they can make all the 2-D games it takes. They still wouldn't want to do that.

The problem with make as many 2-D games as Nintendo currently makes 2-D + 3-D games is that the 2-D consuming audience, while enormous, can still only consume so much, and it becomes a quesiton of diminishing returns. Too many games released too often in a series would mean that interest in the series eventually burns out, and Nintendo won't let that happen. So they either create dozens of new intellectual properties (very expensive, and runs the risk of feeling same-y with the limitations imposed by having to operate in 2-D alone) or they jsut produce a lot fewer games - which, again, results in the problem of the employee turnover rates skyrocketing. By serving only one specific band of consumer, they run th risk of tiring them out on Nintendo products. Stagnation is potentially the greatest enemy Nintendo faces, and it's that danger, exactly, which the Wii is attacking.

There. That should be enough: there are plenty of reasons to continue serving the interests of multiple groups, regardless of one resulting in higher profit margins. if they moved away from serving one, the change would be gradual, taking not generations of console but decades. It's not feasible financially, at least not with my understanding of how one has to market one's work and how one has to mind consumer interest.

I suppose that's all. Some of this migiht not ring true, but I think I made my point.



Dammit Avinash why did you have to go and get banned while I was making my big post

That hits me right here, in the heart



Avinash_Tyagi said:
Khuutra said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Khuutra said:

I'm sorry, did you forget that Twilight Princess is sitting at like 7.2 million sold? Did that escape you?

There's nothing saying that TP was more expensive, in point of fact!

Phantom Hourglass is going to sell "a little bit more" than LttP. Twilight Princess destroyed it. Twilight Princess is going to sell "a little bit more" than Legend of Zelda.

Actually TP is sitting at 6.94 according to VGC

lol, you're actually going to try and argue that N64 Dev costs were higher than Wii Dev costs?

Actually, LttP Snes and GBA combined is over 7.1 million, add in VC sales and its probably a good deal higher, so how did TP destroy it?

Oh, so we're counting re-releases too! Games that have had fifteen years to sell at reduced profit margins!

You have to be joking

Is it not a sale?  Does Nintendo not make money on it?  Also the fact that they still sell, shows that people still want 2D

It's a sale but not a fair comparsion, since TP didn't have the 15 years to sell re-releases at lower prices, and might well get past that mark when it does.

Edit: Also, and unrelated, have you read the last few Iwata Asks? They'd show you that making NSMBW is not such a mundane task. Really, if it was this easy, lots of new, small studios would come with games like this and this good all the time.



Avinash, I'm just going to assume that you agree with my last post.

That okay?

....

SILENCE IS CONSENT



this is why i brought a DS is for 2D Gaming