LordTheNightKnight said:
jarrod said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
jarrod said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
1. So you mean the late 90s Jean and Scott. While I agree that was bad, it's the writers' fault for not being able to write a good married couple (couldn't they have taken cues from Reed and Sue?). The guy who makes the webcomic Evil Inc. can write better relationships.
2. Well considering the BS setup (a timeline Jean couldn't fix just by going back in time and showing Scott she was still there*, and instead she has to sacrifice their love, like a certain Spider Man event), the potential was already shot, since the premise was faulty in the first place. Emma should have started a relationship honestly, not this "I was only trying to sleep with him because I'm in love with him" crap.
* An episode of Darkwing Duck had a better resolution.
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1. It was more mid to late 90s. After Scott's weird fixation with Betsy (Psylocke) and before he was taken over/killed by Apocalypse. I actually liked Revolution Jean too, she was one of the few good things about Revolution.
2. I actually kind of liked Morrison's existential take on the Phoenix (Corps) and his homage to DOFP (Here Comes Tomorrow). Both were suitably complex without hand-holding, and his handling of the Phoenix both restored Claremont's original story (ie: Jean is Phoenix) and helped reconcile that with the Force retcon (ie: "Jean is the house where I live") and other Phoenixes (ie: Rachel, Nate Grey, Feron, that GOTG character, etc) we'd seen since. Jean and Scott were already more or less through, he'd made it clear during his run that they'd drifted apart, so I didn't mind Jean's "mental push" suggesting Scott move on. Emma falling for Scott *after* seducing him was okay too, it almost seems like something that would happen naturally (ie: for Emma, sex would naturally precede love). I also liked Whedon's take on the couple, and at least his Emma still had her backbone. I think Carey, Claremont and Milligan all handled Emma well too when they've used her during/after Morrison, it mainly everyone else who's been terrible (but Fraction, Brubaker and Kyle/Yost in particular).
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The problem with the "drifted apart" line is that he later admitted he was forced to kill Jean off and have Scott end up with Emma (and the fact that he still couldn't take losing Jean showed there wasn't a drift). So what he said before was just him trying to justify it when it wasn't his choice.
Even if you didn't mind the setup, it still caused what happened now, through plain, simple garbage in, garbae out.
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Er, the marriage was essentially broken well before Jean died, and Morrison made that pretty clear throughout his run. It's why Jean went with Xavier on his whirlwind X-Corporation tour, instead of going with Scott to China, and she even said as much. Even if Scott had wanted to stay with her, Jean didn't want it at that point.
Besides, I'd argue Scott's response was partly driven by guilt. Not just of losing Jean, but what he'd done directly beforehand (the affair with Emma). Obviously he still loved her, but that doesn't mean if she were fine he'd still want to keep the marriage going. Plenty of divorced couples still love each other, they just don't work in a relationship.
Also, have you read Morrison's New X-Men Manifeso? Killing Jean was always his plan and resolution after making her Phoenix again, and actually he'd planned on killing more characters (Rogue notably, who he then wanted to replace with a new teenage character "more like in the movies"). Of course, originally he'd also planned on using Storm, Colossus and Moira MacTaggert on his team rather than Emma and Beast.
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That wasn't because they didn't love each other. That was due to Scott still not getting over what happened to him. The killing off thing doesn't make doing just one right either, since he wanted to kill off Jean and bring her back every year.
In short, Morrison was a big pusher for the BS notion that "Jean dies all the time". And let's not get into an argument about that. Suffice to say if spamming a ressurection power half a dozen times in one issue (written after Jean got painted this way) is the biggest evidence, and not her actually being killed off and then brought back half a dozen times, that's not good evidence (not written by him, but still stupid).
And he didn't do his homework in other things. His plan didn't take into account that Moira had been killed off, hence he brought in Emma (so that relationship was clearly not planned), and he was the first one to warp Emma into what she is now.
This is largely what I meant by the "personal playground" comment. They don't see comics as telling good, fun stories anymore. Morrison had good ideas, but he also didn't expunge his bad ideas.
Yeah, this is getting off topic, but again, I agree with Malstrom since I feel the same way about comics.
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Er, I think you're misreading Jean's "I always just die on you" line, it was just a reference back to the DPS. He didn't have actual plans to revive Jean annually, or anything like that.
Also, I said Jean and Scott *did* still love each other, the point was the marriage/relationship drifted and fell apart, not that they didn't still love each other. Which honestly, happens all the time and is fairly common in real life. I thought it was a more realistic and respectful end for Jean/Scott, putting the dramatic death aside for a second.
And yeah, that Endsong miniseries was dreadful all around, and honestly it got Morrison's (re)definition of the Phoenix all wrong. The less said about that mess, the better.
And actually, when Morrison did his first draft manifesto both Moira and Colossus were still alive (they both died shortly before his run). Emma and Hank were thematic replacements initially, but their stories went in pretty different directions in the end. Morrison was also denied Storm for obvious reasons (she was the centerpiece for Claremont's X-Treme book), but he still got to use her in his Genosha arc.
I have to take issue with your characterization of Morrison's Emma though, she really was almost nothing like what the character is now. He put into play the relationship with Scott, but Morrison's Emma Frost was still a calculating, ladder climbing, vindictive, cold, tough, top class bitch. And I miss her. :(
imo, the only really bad thing Morrison did during his run was recasting Magneto as a nazi-style old world "terrorist twat" hypocrite. But at least that can be somewhat explained away by Sublime's influence... which is a hell of a lot better than the confusing it was really Wanda/Xorn retcon we've had since.