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Forums - Sony - Sony NOT Learning from PS3 Mistakes - 3D TV Plan Will Fail

Ssenkahdavic said:
disolitude said:


I use 2 displays when gaming in 3D. I have the Samsung HL67a750 and viewSonic VX2265wm FuHzion monitor.

http://www.viewsonic.com/products/desktop-monitors/lcd/x-series/vx2265wm-fuhzion-lcd.htm

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/about/458892796/samsung-hl67a750

Monitor is LCD with 120 hz input and screen refresh.

DLP TV is 120 screen refresh (only 60hz input) with checkerbox 3D capability.

Monitor is very good...but ghosting is evident and its only 1680x1050. I know that the DLP supposedly cuts the pixels in half with the checkerboard pattern but they do some trickery cause I really can't notice it. Its not as obvious as when you interlace a 1080 signal in to 1080i.

DLP has no ghosting what so ever and looks a little better in motion to me than the monitor.

What is the source you are using for this 3D? what cables from source to function?  Your monitor has DVI-D ports, while the TV has HDMI ports.  There might be a reason for the ghosting (not caused by the actual monitor itself).  Im just curious.

Both use HDMI cable but I have a DVI adapter on the monitor.

Ghosting on the Viewsonic and Samsung 120 hz monitors are known on the Nvidia 3D vision boards. I guess its something early 3D adopters accepted in order to play in 3D.

Did you see the clip on gametrailers from the 2010 Sony CES conference? OLED 3D capable TV? Looks nuts...wonder howmany zeros on the back of that price tag though.



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Icyedge said:
arsenicazure said:
This is a novelty feature. And it applies to a niche audience...Its not going to go mainstream. Not with those $200 glasses it isnt. Maybe in 2015 or so.

200$?!?! you mean 20$ right?

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&q=3D+glasses&cid=13282184064295056746&sa=title#p

Nvidia 3D glasses.. lowest retail price is arnd $170

 

I agree with this PC mag editorial:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2357779,00.asp



Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.

owner of : atari 2600, commodore 64, NES,gameboy,atari lynx, genesis, saturn,neogeo,DC,PS2,GC,X360, Wii

5 THINGS I'd like to see before i knock out:

a. a AAA 3D sonic title

b. a nintendo developed game that has a "M rating"

c. redesgined PS controller

d. SEGA back in the console business

e. M$ out of the OS business

disolitude said:
Ssenkahdavic said:
disolitude said:


I use 2 displays when gaming in 3D. I have the Samsung HL67a750 and viewSonic VX2265wm FuHzion monitor.

http://www.viewsonic.com/products/desktop-monitors/lcd/x-series/vx2265wm-fuhzion-lcd.htm

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/about/458892796/samsung-hl67a750

Monitor is LCD with 120 hz input and screen refresh.

DLP TV is 120 screen refresh (only 60hz input) with checkerbox 3D capability.

Monitor is very good...but ghosting is evident and its only 1680x1050. I know that the DLP supposedly cuts the pixels in half with the checkerboard pattern but they do some trickery cause I really can't notice it. Its not as obvious as when you interlace a 1080 signal in to 1080i.

DLP has no ghosting what so ever and looks a little better in motion to me than the monitor.

What is the source you are using for this 3D? what cables from source to function?  Your monitor has DVI-D ports, while the TV has HDMI ports.  There might be a reason for the ghosting (not caused by the actual monitor itself).  Im just curious.

Both use HDMI cable but I have a DVI adapter on the monitor.

Ghosting on the Viewsonic and Samsung 120 hz monitors are known on the Nvidia 3D vision boards. I guess its something early 3D adopters accepted in order to play in 3D.

Did you see the clip on gametrailers from the 2010 Sony CES conference? OLED 3D capable TV? Looks nuts...wonder howmany zeros on the back of that price tag though.

I watched the entire Sony conference.  Damn that thing look...you said it, nuts.  I cant even begin to imagine how much that thing will cost. 

Any type of adapter, regardless of from what to what, has a bit of input lag (around 1/2 a frame or less).  While you are going digital from the HDMI to the dvi, it still lags a bit when the signal has to move from one location to another via the adapter.  Not saying this is the problem, but it could be part of it.  The monitor has DVI-D dual link which is 9.9Gbps (which is only used if both sides use dual link tech and Im not sure coming from HDMI will count so dock that to 4.5Gbps), while HDMI 1.3 (on your tv) supports 10.2 Gbit/s data stream.  Can check that out here


Nice TV too.  Im using this baby for all my gaming and this as my comp monitor.



Ssenkahdavic said:
disolitude said:
Ssenkahdavic said:
disolitude said:


I use 2 displays when gaming in 3D. I have the Samsung HL67a750 and viewSonic VX2265wm FuHzion monitor.

http://www.viewsonic.com/products/desktop-monitors/lcd/x-series/vx2265wm-fuhzion-lcd.htm

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/about/458892796/samsung-hl67a750

Monitor is LCD with 120 hz input and screen refresh.

DLP TV is 120 screen refresh (only 60hz input) with checkerbox 3D capability.

Monitor is very good...but ghosting is evident and its only 1680x1050. I know that the DLP supposedly cuts the pixels in half with the checkerboard pattern but they do some trickery cause I really can't notice it. Its not as obvious as when you interlace a 1080 signal in to 1080i.

DLP has no ghosting what so ever and looks a little better in motion to me than the monitor.

What is the source you are using for this 3D? what cables from source to function?  Your monitor has DVI-D ports, while the TV has HDMI ports.  There might be a reason for the ghosting (not caused by the actual monitor itself).  Im just curious.

Both use HDMI cable but I have a DVI adapter on the monitor.

Ghosting on the Viewsonic and Samsung 120 hz monitors are known on the Nvidia 3D vision boards. I guess its something early 3D adopters accepted in order to play in 3D.

Did you see the clip on gametrailers from the 2010 Sony CES conference? OLED 3D capable TV? Looks nuts...wonder howmany zeros on the back of that price tag though.

I watched the entire Sony conference.  Damn that thing look...you said it, nuts.  I cant even begin to imagine how much that thing will cost. 

Any type of adapter, regardless of from what to what, has a bit of input lag (around 1/2 a frame or less).  While you are going digital from the HDMI to the dvi, it still lags a bit when the signal has to move from one location to another via the adapter.  Not saying this is the problem, but it could be part of it.  The monitor has DVI-D dual link which is 9.9Gbps (which is only used if both sides use dual link tech and Im not sure coming from HDMI will count so dock that to 4.5Gbps), while HDMI 1.3 (on your tv) supports 10.2 Gbit/s data stream.  Can check that out here


Nice TV too.  Im using this baby for all my gaming and this as my comp monitor.


Damn, you certanly know your HDMI stuff. That site has some pretty useful info.

But yeah, I don't think thats the issue. Nvidia forum is full of peeople that have DLP TVs whining how their 120 hz certified monitors have ghosting... While the LCD only owners are like "what the hell are you talking about?" lol

Those are some nice TVs you got too. I hope mitsubishi keeps making DLPs for a while. I generally like my samsung picture better than most LCDs under 2000 dollars. And in order to get 60+ inch with this picture quality Im looking at 3000+ for plasma/LCD version. Im nNot that rich...

You should get Nvidia 3D vision going on your Mitsubishi if you havent done so already. Out of the 12 games I have on my PC right now, atleast 5 look simply astonishing in 3D with 3D vision while rest look good or great. 

That samsung LCD is an interesting choice for a monitor...

Have you seen this badboy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP-FT57ULaw

Hope that tech takes off...if it does we can all have 100 inch TVs for under 5000 dollars...lol



disolitude said:

Have you seen this badboy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP-FT57ULaw

Hope that tech takes off...if it does we can all have 100 inch TVs for under 5000 dollars...lol

Well that badboy, while impressive, won't be around for a few years and by then OLED TVs will be prospering.

Also interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvn1e343Clo&feature=related



PS3 Will Be King By 2016.

PLAYSTATION®3 is the future.....NOW.......B_E_L_I_E_V_E

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tjallern said:

but the thing is NOW YOU CAN! And if you care about stupid-looking glasses, well too bad for you. What about people that already wear glasses? are you going to look yourself in the mirror while you play/watch? are you really that obsessed with how you look? I guess you always look incredibly handsome when you play games, always keeping that pretty face intact. I can't do anything but laugh about people that care about "cosmetics" like that... I don't give a shit if I look like a moron when there's a chance I might experience the best gaming, movie and sports experiences out there. you go ahead and laugh when this tech fail, and I will laugh at a sissy like you for not joining the party because you're afraid of looking "stupid" with some 3D glasses. Actually, you "look" even more stupid saying that you care about your looks than you would ever do with those 3D glasses.

and how do you know that ESPN 3D or Discovery 3D will translate poorly into the 3D format? Have you tried it?? and btw, I don't think your TV will be LOCKED in 3D-mode. If you don't want to watch in 3D you don't have to, but you got the choice. What is wrong with having choices?

 

for instance: do you think you look handsome when you're taking roller-coasters??? no, you look like an ugly piece of shit. we all do. do you care? no. do you still enjoy roller-coasters? yes.

The glasses issue isn't so much about looks as it is about two other things: comfort and inclusiveness. In the first case, few people want to wear glasses all the time because they're generally uncomfortable. In the second, you need to have a pair of 3D glasses for everyone who wants to watch your 3D TV. Do you want to invite ten of your friends over to watch the 3D Super Bowl? Welp, better have 11 pairs of glasses.

As for TV translating poorly into the 3D format, TV is not Avatar. Consumers flocked to Avatar because it's a visual splendor in 3D. Not so for the news, or American Idol, or even your average Discovery Channel documentary.

And you didn't even cite the main body of my argument - that Sony is overshooting the market, by far. Nobody (outside of a few tech-heads) wants 3D TV foisted upon them.



"'Casual games' are something the 'Game Industry' invented to explain away the Wii success instead of actually listening or looking at what Nintendo did. There is no 'casual strategy' from Nintendo. 'Accessible strategy', yes, but ‘casual gamers’ is just the 'Game Industry''s polite way of saying what they feel: 'retarded gamers'."

 -Sean Malstrom

 

 

disolitude said:


Damn, you certanly know your HDMI stuff. That site has some pretty useful info.

But yeah, I don't think thats the issue. Nvidia forum is full of peeople that have DLP TVs whining how their 120 hz certified monitors have ghosting... While the LCD only owners are like "what the hell are you talking about?" lol

Those are some nice TVs you got too. I hope mitsubishi keeps making DLPs for a while. I generally like my samsung picture better than most LCDs under 2000 dollars. And in order to get 60+ inch with this picture quality Im looking at 3000+ for plasma/LCD version. Im nNot that rich...

You should get Nvidia 3D vision going on your Mitsubishi if you havent done so already. Out of the 12 games I have on my PC right now, atleast 5 look simply astonishing in 3D with 3D vision while rest look good or great. 

That samsung LCD is an interesting choice for a monitor...

Have you seen this badboy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP-FT57ULaw

Hope that tech takes off...if it does we can all have 100 inch TVs for under 5000 dollars...lol

Hot damn, have not seen that yet.  Laser tv...god I love me some tech.  Looks awesome, and did they really say 1000hz? 

As far as 1080px2 (at 60hz each) I just thought of something.  Remember when the ps3 was originally announced they had plans for dual HDMI 1.3 out?  If (and Im saying IF) the ps3 could handle 2 independant HDMI outputs, It makes sense it could support the exact same but through only one connector.  I know they removed it to try and cut costs (which did not help much now did it?)  This would allow movies to do it this way, but as far as games go I donno.

I have a hard time believing the ps3 will be able to run games at 1080px2 @60hz each.  The article only says bluerays doing this, not games.  Im wondering if maybe they will cut games down/leave them @ 720p (or less) @60hz each.  I guess only time will tell on this.  (Most lightbulbs in your house flicker at 60hz, which is enough not to give you a headache.  Most of that is caused when they split the 60hz signal into 2 30hz for both eyes)

Ive looked into 3D vision before and was always interested in it.  Tho, if I buy anything else right now my girlfriend will kill me :)  The Samsung is her old tv, but she went and bought herself one of these.  The plasma is awesome but I prefer my DLP just like you do, for gaming and regular tv watching.  I love me some Newegg if you cannot tell :)  Worked for Egghead software (one of the egg companies) back in HS before they dropped their storefronts. 

Oh yea.  Calling checkerboard a gimmick might not be correct (think that term should just be banished from existence)  But calling it such in no way diminishes the fact that it works exactly as advertised (which is more than we can say about most anything else isnt it?)  It really is an interesting way of creating the 3D field by not duplicating data per eye.

@Vexxmania: 8 comps running 16 projectors?  Thats awesome, leave it to Mitsu to research the craziness.  And yea, OLED will be out for awhile before we see any type of tv laser tech and who knows how good they will be by the time that tech is ready for the mainstream. 



Ssenkahdavic said:
 

Hot damn, have not seen that yet.  Laser tv...god I love me some tech.  Looks awesome, and did they really say 1000hz? 

As far as 1080px2 (at 60hz each) I just thought of something.  Remember when the ps3 was originally announced they had plans for dual HDMI 1.3 out?  If (and Im saying IF) the ps3 could handle 2 independant HDMI outputs, It makes sense it could support the exact same but through only one connector.  I know they removed it to try and cut costs (which did not help much now did it?)  This would allow movies to do it this way, but as far as games go I donno.

I have a hard time believing the ps3 will be able to run games at 1080px2 @60hz each.  The article only says bluerays doing this, not games.  Im wondering if maybe they will cut games down/leave them @ 720p (or less) @60hz each.  I guess only time will tell on this.  (Most lightbulbs in your house flicker at 60hz, which is enough not to give you a headache.  Most of that is caused when they split the 60hz signal into 2 30hz for both eyes)

Ive looked into 3D vision before and was always interested in it.  Tho, if I buy anything else right now my girlfriend will kill me :)  The Samsung is her old tv, but she went and bought herself one of these.  The plasma is awesome but I prefer my DLP just like you do, for gaming and regular tv watching.  I love me some Newegg if you cannot tell :)  Worked for Egghead software (one of the egg companies) back in HS before they dropped their storefronts. 

Oh yea.  Calling checkerboard a gimmick might not be correct (think that term should just be banished from existence)  But calling it such in no way diminishes the fact that it works exactly as advertised (which is more than we can say about most anything else isnt it?)  It really is an interesting way of creating the 3D field by not duplicating data per eye.

@Vexxmania: 8 comps running 16 projectors?  Thats awesome, leave it to Mitsu to research the craziness.  And yea, OLED will be out for awhile before we see any type of tv laser tech and who knows how good they will be by the time that tech is ready for the mainstream. 


If that Laser TV has a 1000hz refresh rate...imagine what that would imply when it comes to this tech. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGuXlNe6s7s

If 120 hz DLP can let 2 players view 2 different things on the screen...1000 hz should be able to let the whole family watch a different channel at the same time on the same TV.

I really hate samsung for bailing on DLP and causing Texas Instruments to drop that tech before it was released.

Otherwise, your GF has great taste in TVs...lol

I really wonder how Sony is going to do the PS3 bluray 3D stuff. Your dual output theory could be the ace up their sleave. I simply have no idea...

One way that these current gen machines could actually do 3D for games is to optimize the 3D drivers for the checkerboard pattern. Cause that is not really requiring any more horsepower than they are already have since they are already pusing 1080p(or 720p) @ 60 hz and have the checkerboard TV  trickery do the magic.

I wish Nvidia 3D vision had optimized drivers for checkerboard to be honest. As things stand, the nvidia drivers make the videocard push 1080p@60 hz * 2 to my DLP TV and only have the DLP TV filter the image to make it checkerbaord. Its basically wasting 1920x1080 pixels in doing so...and hence Resident evil 5 chugs like a mofo when set on high quality despite me having a quad core cpu and GTX275 videocard.



disolitude said:
Ssenkahdavic said:
disolitude said:
Ssenkahdavic said:
disolitude said:
Ssenkahdavic said:
 

I never said anything about a 120hz LCD tvs.  I said 120hz from SOURCE (no matter the type of TV).

That article talks about 3D vision (nvidia), something that is not PS3/Sony's 3D TV plan.

The second shows what it does, which is awesome but it does not offer any explanation. 3D Ready has always meant nVidia 3d... which is checkerboard 3d.  I guess we can agree on one thing, we wont know until they actually release more data. 

Lol. This is true only for LCD/CRT displays. All I was saying is that for DLP projectors, plasmas an DLP TVs you need 60 hz source since they use checkerboad to show both images(for each eye) at the same time and don't need to refresh the screen.

The thing about the whole 3D fiasco...Nvidia 3D vision supports checkerboard, 120 hz lcd from the source thing and the old school red/blue glasses (anaglyph)...its very versitile.

While its true that we need more data to see how this bluray 3D with shape up, the 3D tech has been around for a while and nothing has really changed. The only thing thats different is that they finally have the means to do it in HD at a cost where a consumer can afford it...

On the gaming side, if Sony or Micosoft want to implement 3D in their games...they will need someone to make the 3D drivers for their consoles/games. There are 3 companes that can do it. Nvidia, IZ3d and Tridef. Starting from scratch for would be crazy since all 3 of those companies hve been doing what they do for over 5 years and have perfected their 3D...

I guess what Im saying is that, Sony, Samsung, LG...will come out all guns blazing in tryign to consumers to purchase the 120 hz refresh TV that supports 3D for...3000 dollars. And consumers won't realize that they can purcahse a DLP or a plasma which have equal if not better results for half the price...and they could have done this 2 years ago.

 

Did you read this?  Look back at what checkerboard actually does.  It takes the signal, splits it between both eyes to equal a 1080p signal @60hz per eye (equievelent of 120hz)  Read the bottom right of the page you posted elsewhere.  It says "Combine: the left and right sampled images into one full 1080p image for display"

From the press release: "Notably, the specification allows every Blu-ray 3D player and movie to deliver Full HD 1080p resolution to each eye, thereby maintaining the industry leading image quality to which Blu-ray Disc viewers are accustomed. Moreover, the specification is display agnostic, meaning that Blu-ray 3D products will deliver the 3D image to any compatible 3D display, regardless of whether that display uses LCD, Plasma or other technology and regardless of what 3D technology the display uses to deliver the image to the viewer’s eyes."

This means one of 2 things.

1) 120hz output (which the ps3 cannot natively support.  Need HDMI 1.4 for this)

2) 2x60hz outputs @1080p (one for each eye)

So what you are suggesting is that 3D bluray wont support checkerboard displays? You will need a 120 hz input for the TV or it will not work at all...

Cause I dont see option #2 working on any TV...no TV has resolution of 1080p X 2 that it could dedicate 1080p to yeach eye and stay at 60 hz.

They do not say any tv.  They say any TV compatible with this technology, which could be a TV that has the tech for checkerboard built in, but it just isnt using that mode.  Doing 1080p x2 (each @60hz) is duable via HDMI 1.3 (which the ps3 has and other blueray players have).  Meaning the cable has enough throughput to support this much data. Im betting the PS3/blueray 3D tech will use this type of signal to generate the full 1080p per eye.  The Xbox360 and their plans for 3D gaming are different.  I bet those will definitely use checkerbox, since they are using HDMI 1.2 (which does not support this).  Post up your tv?  Im curious and Id like to take a look at it.


I use 2 displays when gaming in 3D. I have the Samsung HL67a750 and viewSonic VX2265wm FuHzion monitor.

http://www.viewsonic.com/products/desktop-monitors/lcd/x-series/vx2265wm-fuhzion-lcd.htm

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/about/458892796/samsung-hl67a750

Monitor is LCD with 120 hz input and screen refresh.

DLP TV is 120 screen refresh (only 60hz input) with checkerbox 3D capability.

Monitor is very good...but ghosting is evident and its only 1680x1050. I know that the DLP supposedly cuts the pixels in half with the checkerboard pattern but they do some trickery cause I really can't notice it. Its not as obvious as when you interlace a 1080 signal in to 1080i.

DLP has no ghosting what so ever and looks a little better in motion to me than the monitor.


Do you see any flickers on your DLP??



disolitude said:
Ssenkahdavic said:
disolitude said:
Ssenkahdavic said:
disolitude said:


I use 2 displays when gaming in 3D. I have the Samsung HL67a750 and viewSonic VX2265wm FuHzion monitor.

http://www.viewsonic.com/products/desktop-monitors/lcd/x-series/vx2265wm-fuhzion-lcd.htm

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/about/458892796/samsung-hl67a750

Monitor is LCD with 120 hz input and screen refresh.

DLP TV is 120 screen refresh (only 60hz input) with checkerbox 3D capability.

Monitor is very good...but ghosting is evident and its only 1680x1050. I know that the DLP supposedly cuts the pixels in half with the checkerboard pattern but they do some trickery cause I really can't notice it. Its not as obvious as when you interlace a 1080 signal in to 1080i.

DLP has no ghosting what so ever and looks a little better in motion to me than the monitor.

What is the source you are using for this 3D? what cables from source to function?  Your monitor has DVI-D ports, while the TV has HDMI ports.  There might be a reason for the ghosting (not caused by the actual monitor itself).  Im just curious.

Both use HDMI cable but I have a DVI adapter on the monitor.

Ghosting on the Viewsonic and Samsung 120 hz monitors are known on the Nvidia 3D vision boards. I guess its something early 3D adopters accepted in order to play in 3D.

Did you see the clip on gametrailers from the 2010 Sony CES conference? OLED 3D capable TV? Looks nuts...wonder howmany zeros on the back of that price tag though.

I watched the entire Sony conference.  Damn that thing look...you said it, nuts.  I cant even begin to imagine how much that thing will cost. 

Any type of adapter, regardless of from what to what, has a bit of input lag (around 1/2 a frame or less).  While you are going digital from the HDMI to the dvi, it still lags a bit when the signal has to move from one location to another via the adapter.  Not saying this is the problem, but it could be part of it.  The monitor has DVI-D dual link which is 9.9Gbps (which is only used if both sides use dual link tech and Im not sure coming from HDMI will count so dock that to 4.5Gbps), while HDMI 1.3 (on your tv) supports 10.2 Gbit/s data stream.  Can check that out here


Nice TV too.  Im using this baby for all my gaming and this as my comp monitor.


Damn, you certanly know your HDMI stuff. That site has some pretty useful info.

But yeah, I don't think thats the issue. Nvidia forum is full of peeople that have DLP TVs whining how their 120 hz certified monitors have ghosting... While the LCD only owners are like "what the hell are you talking about?" lol

Those are some nice TVs you got too. I hope mitsubishi keeps making DLPs for a while. I generally like my samsung picture better than most LCDs under 2000 dollars. And in order to get 60+ inch with this picture quality Im looking at 3000+ for plasma/LCD version. Im nNot that rich...

You should get Nvidia 3D vision going on your Mitsubishi if you havent done so already. Out of the 12 games I have on my PC right now, atleast 5 look simply astonishing in 3D with 3D vision while rest look good or great. 

That samsung LCD is an interesting choice for a monitor...

Have you seen this badboy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP-FT57ULaw

Hope that tech takes off...if it does we can all have 100 inch TVs for under 5000 dollars...lol


Its easy right now to have 100 inch TV below 5000$, its called projector ;). Like my avatar, its 92" widescreen 1080 P dlp projector on an optoma graywolf 2 1.8 gain screen. Its exactly like any LCD TV but much much bigger. Too bad 3D doesnt work on those type of projector :(.