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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Another developer doesn't see "make games up to standard" as an answer.

SaviorX said:
Procrastinato said:
SaviorX said:
Procrastinato said:
LordTheNightKnight said:

4. You actually think putting a third of the big games on the Wii ISN'T a suggestion for that? Oh, yeah, costing just over 1/2 instead of 1/4 magically stops the games from being profitable.

This is just the same logic twisting as those companies use to aoivd the Wii. You're just as delusional as they are when presented with the simple facts (1/2 HD > /1/4 HD , but ignoring that 1 HD > 1/2 HD).


That's exactly right.  I'm "just as delusional" as the 3rd parties are, when I can see that spending 1/2 as much, on development only, on 2 Wii titles is not going to make me as much money as spending the whole sum on one HD title -- just from analysis of the successful "hardcore", targetted demographic titles on the Wii thusfar.  I'm "just as delusional" in thinking that the blue ocean is, by nature, a large compilation of demographic sets which only overlap, to make a significant sum, in a couple genres, like "casual" and "party".

"Namco Bandai Holdings President Takeo Takasu said rising development costs for next-generation games mean companies need to sell at least 500,000 copies in order to make a profit. Mr. Takasu said graphics for PS3 games can cost nearly $9 million to create — more than double the price tag for Wii titles."

"It was estimated in 2005 that only 80 games a year make a profit. Development costs in the next generation are set to rise from $3 -$6 million per title to $6-$10 million, with some cases surpassing $20 million. Licensed games, such as Madden NFL or James Bond titles, generate about 23% more revenue than original content."

 

"Game development on the seventh generation consoles typically requires a budget of around $10 million or more and according to IDC analyst Billy Pidgeon. "You might be able to weather one title coming in at 500,000 in sales," he said. "But two or three failures like that and even big publishers are going to be hurting." David Jones, who's worked on some of the industry's iconic titles such as Grand Theft Auto and Crackdown said he'd struggle to make an online game with a budget less than $20 million."

"Ubisoft boss Yves Guillemot has predicted game budgets will rise to an average of USD 60 million in the future. Games for Xbox 360 and PS3 cost between USD 20 million and USD 30 million to make. Leading on from this, an Ubisoft executive gave a breakdown of the company's average development costs per game - with a DS title costing between 500,000 to 1,000,000 euros ($785,000-$1.57m), PS3/Xbox 360/PC titles averaging 12 million to 18 million euros ($18.8m-$28.2m) to create for all 3 SKUs, and a Wii game expected to cost 5 million to 6 million euros ($7.8-$9m) to develop."

 

You need more? 

Yeah, those are Ubisoft numbers, right?

Show us the list of all those awesome Ubisoft Wii games, each of which cost $7.8-$9M to develop, and their sales #s?

Don't try and pull that on me. I mentioned MORE than just Ubisoft.

This is what I meant. That user just twists facts presented to avoid actual discussion.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

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LordTheNightKnight said:
SaviorX said:
Procrastinato said:
SaviorX said:
Procrastinato said:
LordTheNightKnight said:

4. You actually think putting a third of the big games on the Wii ISN'T a suggestion for that? Oh, yeah, costing just over 1/2 instead of 1/4 magically stops the games from being profitable.

This is just the same logic twisting as those companies use to aoivd the Wii. You're just as delusional as they are when presented with the simple facts (1/2 HD > /1/4 HD , but ignoring that 1 HD > 1/2 HD).


That's exactly right.  I'm "just as delusional" as the 3rd parties are, when I can see that spending 1/2 as much, on development only, on 2 Wii titles is not going to make me as much money as spending the whole sum on one HD title -- just from analysis of the successful "hardcore", targetted demographic titles on the Wii thusfar.  I'm "just as delusional" in thinking that the blue ocean is, by nature, a large compilation of demographic sets which only overlap, to make a significant sum, in a couple genres, like "casual" and "party".

"Namco Bandai Holdings President Takeo Takasu said rising development costs for next-generation games mean companies need to sell at least 500,000 copies in order to make a profit. Mr. Takasu said graphics for PS3 games can cost nearly $9 million to create — more than double the price tag for Wii titles."

"It was estimated in 2005 that only 80 games a year make a profit. Development costs in the next generation are set to rise from $3 -$6 million per title to $6-$10 million, with some cases surpassing $20 million. Licensed games, such as Madden NFL or James Bond titles, generate about 23% more revenue than original content."

 

"Game development on the seventh generation consoles typically requires a budget of around $10 million or more and according to IDC analyst Billy Pidgeon. "You might be able to weather one title coming in at 500,000 in sales," he said. "But two or three failures like that and even big publishers are going to be hurting." David Jones, who's worked on some of the industry's iconic titles such as Grand Theft Auto and Crackdown said he'd struggle to make an online game with a budget less than $20 million."

"Ubisoft boss Yves Guillemot has predicted game budgets will rise to an average of USD 60 million in the future. Games for Xbox 360 and PS3 cost between USD 20 million and USD 30 million to make. Leading on from this, an Ubisoft executive gave a breakdown of the company's average development costs per game - with a DS title costing between 500,000 to 1,000,000 euros ($785,000-$1.57m), PS3/Xbox 360/PC titles averaging 12 million to 18 million euros ($18.8m-$28.2m) to create for all 3 SKUs, and a Wii game expected to cost 5 million to 6 million euros ($7.8-$9m) to develop."

 

You need more? 

Yeah, those are Ubisoft numbers, right?

Show us the list of all those awesome Ubisoft Wii games, each of which cost $7.8-$9M to develop, and their sales #s?

Don't try and pull that on me. I mentioned MORE than just Ubisoft.

This is what I meant. That user just twists facts presented to avoid actual discussion.

are you referring to yourself? cause your post history indicates it.

 

On Topic: Procastino, i agree with you that having a game on the Wii won't necessarily make it more successful than on the HD consoles, even if its 1/2 of the budget of an HD game, because they have to compete with shovelware selling at half its price, and Nintendo Itself.



Procrastinato said:
gamingdan said:
Procrastinato said:
SaviorX said:
Procrastinato said:
SaviorX said:
(snip)

and a Wii game expected to cost 5 million to 6 million euros ($7.8-$9m) to develop."

 

You need more? 

(Snip)

(Snip)

I'm not pulling anything on you.  Show us the results of those Ubisoft investments you quoted, please.  Nothing else in your post is Wii-specific, so.. surely that was what you wanted everyone to see?

Left the bolded and final in to show what i'm responding to.

Firstly i'm appalled that i've actually had to quit lurking to reply to this absurdity and as a proud lurker for years it shames me.

Secondly some basic math. going by the upper figure quoted + $1 mil for other costs like discs, cases, shipping and the pitiful amount of ads that are inherent in Ubisoft made games. So 10 million dollars total, a game would have to sell ~250k to break even at a $40 pricepoint. A quick check on the VGchartz game database shows 26 games above that (majority of which without others data so may be a few more) that have been published by Ubisoft. If anyone has the Ubisoft Financial breakdown to beat this point in even further feel free to add i'll be off trying to become the guy.

 

First... retailers don't buy Wii games at $40 from the publisher, especially if they sell for $40 (or less) at retail.  From the money they do get, there are licensing fees, etc... Your 250K number is pretty outrageous.

From SaviorX's own post (which you quoted, but snipped...):

"Game development on the seventh generation consoles typically requires a budget of around $10 million or more and according to IDC analyst Billy Pidgeon. "You might be able to weather one title coming in at 500,000 in sales," he said. "But two or three failures like that and even big publishers are going to be hurting."

Looks like 500K is a loser, from the quoted professional's standpoint, on a $10M dollar game.  Re-evaluate your guesstimations around that.

500k is a figure you've quoted from an analyst and if you've been on this site any great length of time you'd know how much disdain we hold for them here. I'll cede the point that $40 per game for a self developed/selfpublished game is a bit high but the laughably weak American dollar the past 4 or 5 years has meant that it isnt all that much lower as a worldwide average.

Mathtime: I've worked at gamestation for the past 2 years and from order forms and general management stuff i know we buy Wii games from the publisher at £25 per unit and sell them for £34.99-£39.99. The weak dollar (at the moment $1.66 to the pound) means we pay $41.50 per game. On a self published/self developed game which is what i take the quote from Ubisoft to mean you could expect them to take a total of 75-80% rest goes to hardware licenses and various other licenses required. That woud mean from the UK's biggest specialty retailer they take (using the lower figure of 75%) $31.12 per unit. I'm assuming now that other shops/supermarkets have the same deal with publishers as the lowest i've seen a new game has been £26 for MW2 from the major supermarkets in an effort to draw in people.

Eurozone i'm a little more fuzzy on but even if we say 25 euro per game that retailers pay, at the current exchange rate ($1.55 to the euro) it won't be all that much lower at $29.06 take after conversions and licenses.

Back to the analyst quote you do seem to suffer from selective reading disorder as you can clearly see (I hope) that it is $10mil or more and then gives an arbitrary number without anything linking it to a figure of total publishing costs ie. dev costs+ads+discs+cases+printing which is what I have done in my example of a $10mil dollar game.

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No platform magically makes games sell better or worse. A larger userbase always helps, as it delivers a higher potential audience, but actual sales will always rest on content and promotion. If you have shitty content and don't promote, you'll bomb no matter where you go.