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Forums - Nintendo - Solution for 3rd party Wii quality titles

Khuutra on 30 November 2009
Procrastinato said:
Khuutra said:

Because it requires acknowledging the idea that third parties may be responsible for the current situation - not that they're at fault, so to speak, but that the demographic split is of their own doing.

Look, we agree that the demographic split is the primary reason that games like Call of Duty don't sell as well on the Wii, right? The typical Call of Duty buyer owns an HD connsole, yes?

Yeah, the demographic scatter is the primary reason Wii games are so unprofitable for 3rd parties -- they find it hard to target their traditional demographic there, and they are not used to the blue ocean demographic (like Ninty is), so they find it difficult to create games for the blue ocean.

I'm not really addressing that, however.  I'm addressing Reggies recent comments about how he wants to see games like AC2, etc. on the Wii.  I'm suggesting that, that just isn't going to happen, because the Wii is all about the blue ocean, and not about the traditional demographic at all.  If traditional demographic games come to the Wii, they need to cost more... or something.  The buyers just aren't there.

We're not talking about what you're addressing, we're working toward my solution. Follow me, here. And we can't pass word on what is or isn't profitable on the Wii, either, we're not qualified to say that sort of thing. Try to stick with me.

Now, given that the demographic split is there, it stands to reason that the majority of these nice big HD-type titles would continue to release on the HD systems, yes? Becuase that is where the audience is?



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Procrastinato on 30 November 2009
jarrod said:
lol. MH3's less of a "port" than MW2 if code/asset reuse is what we're going by.

Also, the article's not totally correct even, monster animations were hugely increased/improved in MH3. It's the standard character animations that look like basically a PS2 retread, though even there there's huge additions thanks to swimming.

Jarrod, just fyi, I'm ignoring you.  You're wearing blinders, and its a waste of my time to try to take them off you.

I just wanted you to know I was ignoring you, so you could leave the thread and not wonder if people were ignoring you. =)



 

Procrastinato on 30 November 2009
Khuutra said:
Procrastinato said:
Khuutra said:

Because it requires acknowledging the idea that third parties may be responsible for the current situation - not that they're at fault, so to speak, but that the demographic split is of their own doing.

Look, we agree that the demographic split is the primary reason that games like Call of Duty don't sell as well on the Wii, right? The typical Call of Duty buyer owns an HD connsole, yes?

Yeah, the demographic scatter is the primary reason Wii games are so unprofitable for 3rd parties -- they find it hard to target their traditional demographic there, and they are not used to the blue ocean demographic (like Ninty is), so they find it difficult to create games for the blue ocean.

I'm not really addressing that, however.  I'm addressing Reggies recent comments about how he wants to see games like AC2, etc. on the Wii.  I'm suggesting that, that just isn't going to happen, because the Wii is all about the blue ocean, and not about the traditional demographic at all.  If traditional demographic games come to the Wii, they need to cost more... or something.  The buyers just aren't there.

We're not talking about what you're addressing, we're working toward my solution. Follow me, here. And we can't pass word on what is or isn't profitable on the Wii, either, we're not qualified to say that sort of thing. Try to stick with me.

Now, given that the demographic split is there, it stands to reason that the majority of these nice big HD-type titles would continue to release on the HD systems, yes? Becuase that is where the audience is?

Presumably, sure.



 

Dr.Grass on 30 November 2009

LOL @ the bickering and fighting!



Khuutra on 30 November 2009
Procrastinato said:
Khuutra said:

We're not talking about what you're addressing, we're working toward my solution. Follow me, here. And we can't pass word on what is or isn't profitable on the Wii, either, we're not qualified to say that sort of thing. Try to stick with me.

Now, given that the demographic split is there, it stands to reason that the majority of these nice big HD-type titles would continue to release on the HD systems, yes? Becuase that is where the audience is?

Presumably, sure.

Yeah, presumably is about all we have to work with here.

Now, given that HD systems are where those games continue to be released, it makes sense that new buyers - if they are looking specifically for that sort of experience - will continue to go to the HD systems, yes? And that the demographic split either remains or is exacerbated?



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jarrod on 30 November 2009
Procrastinato said:
Khuutra said:
Procrastinato said:
Khuutra said:
Procrastinato, you are reaching on that point and I think it would be better if you let that go, since animations would be one of the only art resources that's being re-used - you can read the rest of the article to help illustrate that.

Now, I do have a solution to this, but you're not going to like it, and it's not going to happen, and it's not really possible - but it is more tenable than just raising prices by ten dollars.

What's the solution, and why wouldn't I like it?

Because it requires acknowledging the idea that third parties may be responsible for the current situation - not that they're at fault, so to speak, but that the demographic split is of their own doing.

Look, we agree that the demographic split is the primary reason that games like Call of Duty don't sell as well on the Wii, right? The typical Call of Duty buyer owns an HD connsole, yes?

 

Yeah, the demographic scatter is the primary reason Wii games are so unprofitable for 3rd parties -- they find it hard to target their traditional demographic there, and they are not used to the blue ocean demographic (like Ninty is), so they find it difficult to create games for the blue ocean.

I'm not really addressing that, however.  I'm addressing Reggies recent comments about how he wants to see games like AC2, etc. on the Wii.  I'm suggesting that, that just isn't going to happen, because the Wii is all about the blue ocean, and not about the traditional demographic at all.  If traditional demographic games come to the Wii, they need to cost more... or something.  The buyers just aren't there.

But (speaking of "conjecture") there's nothing to prove "the buyer's aren't there" until we actually have new 3rd party games on level with AC2, MW2, etc, on Wii and they tank.  Again, the only really comparable scale effort (MH3) did exceptionally, and it's arguably about as "hardcore" as videogames get.

I would say the larger issue for 3rd parties has been fear of demographic scatter leading their decision making... although at this point, their actions have likely made those fears reality (to some degree).  Again, 3rd parties made their own bed with Wii.



Procrastinato on 30 November 2009
Khuutra said:
Procrastinato said:
Khuutra said:

We're not talking about what you're addressing, we're working toward my solution. Follow me, here. And we can't pass word on what is or isn't profitable on the Wii, either, we're not qualified to say that sort of thing. Try to stick with me.

Now, given that the demographic split is there, it stands to reason that the majority of these nice big HD-type titles would continue to release on the HD systems, yes? Becuase that is where the audience is?

Presumably, sure.

Yeah, presumably is about all we have to work with here.

Now, given that HD systems are where those games continue to be released, it makes sense that new buyers - if they are looking specifically for that sort of experience - will continue to go to the HD systems, yes? And that the demographic split either remains or is exacerbated?

Hmm yep.

 



 

jarrod on 30 November 2009
Procrastinato said:
jarrod said:
lol. MH3's less of a "port" than MW2 if code/asset reuse is what we're going by.

Also, the article's not totally correct even, monster animations were hugely increased/improved in MH3. It's the standard character animations that look like basically a PS2 retread, though even there there's huge additions thanks to swimming.

Jarrod, just fyi, I'm ignoring you.  You're wearing blinders, and its a waste of my time to try to take them off you.

I just wanted you to know I was ignoring you, so you could leave the thread and not wonder if people were ignoring you. =)

No source then?  I see the "conjecture" keeps coming though. ;)



Khuutra on 30 November 2009
Procrastinato said:
Khuutra said:

Yeah, presumably is about all we have to work with here.

Now, given that HD systems are where those games continue to be released, it makes sense that new buyers - if they are looking specifically for that sort of experience - will continue to go to the HD systems, yes? And that the demographic split either remains or is exacerbated?

Hmm yep.

There's your problem - and your solution.

Appealing to demographics as they are now is not tenable because the demographics simply aren't there. In order to make these efforts on the Wii profitable, you have to work to expand your demographic on the hardware, which is to say you need to bring in people who would otherwise buy HD consoles and convince them that buying a Wii would get them roughly the same experience (plus Nintendo).

You see where I'm going with this.

The only way to get comparable numbers - and comparable money - on the Wii would be to release a deluge of these games on the Wii, completely changing the face of its library as it's understood by the hardcore. Third parties would need to appeal to new buyers, not current ones, and by sheer force of content force the many potential buyers of the Wii to go "Hot damn! I can get Mario and Assassin's Creed? Sign me up!"

But yes, you see the problem: it is a catch-22. They can't take the risk of that investment. The demographic split was set in stone sometime in 2007 when it became clear that third parties had missed the Wii train, so they have essentially shut themselves out from being able to bring some of their own audiences to that console.



famousringo on 30 November 2009
Procrastinato said:
jarrod said:

lol, no.  MH3 was built ground up around Wii spec, there's literally no shared code with MH2.  And it looks dramatically better too, as one should would expect from a machine with double the clockspeeds, triple the memory and a superior GPU.  And it's not just looks, monster AI has been dramatically overhauled as well.  MH3 is a shining example of what developer *should* be doing with Wii, it's a game that PS2 literally couldn't handle unless it was significantly scaled down.

Any current demographic issues are directly a result of 3rd party efforts.  I agree there's some problems now, but that's entirely due to 3rd parties not cultivating those audiences in the first place.  Just look at the difference with how Activision's handled Guitar Hero versus Call of Duty on Wii, and how that's shaped the target base for each IP on the console.  This isn't something a $10 price increase would fix, if anything it'd likely make issues worse (as I seriously doubt a $10 would bring general Wii budgets in line with even AAA PS2 games, it'd still be getting mainly shovelware).

The bolded is 100% conjecture, on your part.  And actually, so is the italicized.  I heard different -- have a link?

EDIT: nm, I see that Khuutra's link says "new engine"... also later in the article it says "It is an exceptionally good-looking Wii game, even if most of the animation is recognisable from the PS2 version of Monster Hunter 2"

...hmm, isn't animation supposed to be one of the big savings of developing on the Wii?  Sounds like they re-used their PS2 anims.  So the code is new... but some of the major art resources are re-used.  I call that a port, at least somewhat.

 

So is that where 3rd parties should come from, then?  PS2 games ported to the Wii, for quality game experiences?  Indeed, many of the best Wii games are PS2 ports, like Okami, and it looks like MH3 is something of a port as well.

No, that would be textures and polygon modeling. The Wii doesn't magically make mo-cap or animation design cheaper and I've never heard anybody suggest that it does until you just now.

Capcom also recycled a ton of animations from RE4 into RE5. Can we call RE5 a PS2 port?



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