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Forums - Nintendo - Solution for 3rd party Wii quality titles

Procrastinato said:
mike_intellivision said:
Procrastinato said:
jarrod said:

Real solution: Release AAA games, not budget spinoffs and niche new IPs. It worked for Monster Hunter.

 

The "problem" with 3rd party Wii "efforts" is 100% content, 0% pricepoint.  If they did it on PS2, they should be doing it on Wii.

Games don't profit at $50/unit to a demographic (which is not the overall ownership) base smaller than what the PS360 have.  That's the problem.  The budget for those games has to be small to compensate.  Budget is the most reliable indicator of eventual game quality -- obviously there are many exceptions, but there are no other factors, other than developer rep (and reputable devs usually demand a high budget..), that are a good estimator of game quality.

If you research your history of development, one bigh reason that MH3 was moved from the PS3 to the Wii because of the differential in development costs.

In other words, your assumption that development on the Wii is as costly as development on the PS3 and Xbox 360 is generally not true. There have been many threads about this. But the difference is usually put at between 25% and 33% -- much more than the 17% difference in prices points.

 

Mike from Morgantown

 

 

MH3 is a minor upgrade of the MH2 engine from the PS2.  Moving MH2 to the Wii, and enhancing it, was easier than greatly enhancing the engine and moving to the PS3/360.  It has nothing to do with the Wii, per se, and everything to do with code re-use from the last generation.

Your bolded comment above, is manufactured.  I have never said that its not true.  I have always said that it *is* true, and that's why Wii games are low quality.  Pretty big difference.

Not taking the sum total picture in account is your argument's major flaw.  Not only is the per-unit price a problem, but the untargettable demographics are a serious, serious issue.  You can't deny that games like CoD:WaW, or The Conduit, are good games... yet they didn't hit anywhere near the HD numbers for those titles, or like titles.

I'm suggesting that the demographic issue is not fixable.  The price point one, is.

lol, no.  MH3 was built ground up around Wii spec, there's literally no shared code with MH2.  And it looks dramatically better too, as one should would expect from a machine with double the clockspeeds, triple the memory and a superior GPU.  And it's not just looks, monster AI has been dramatically overhauled as well.  MH3 is a shining example of what developer *should* be doing with Wii, it's a game that PS2 literally couldn't handle unless it was significantly scaled down.

Any current demographic issues are directly a result of 3rd party efforts.  I agree there's some problems now, but that's entirely due to 3rd parties not cultivating those audiences in the first place.  Just look at the difference with how Activision's handled Guitar Hero versus Call of Duty on Wii, and how that's shaped the target base for each IP on the console.  This isn't something a $10 price increase would fix, if anything it'd likely make issues worse (as I seriously doubt a $10 would bring general Wii budgets in line with even AAA PS2 games, it'd still be getting mainly shovelware).



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Procrastinato said:
Khuutra said:

The explanation for that being that it was necessary to establish the Modern Warfare brand?

I don't think I get your point, here. Clearly Call of Duty games do not have to sell HD numbers on the Wii, because the Wii continues to get them.

And yes, World at War was released at the same time as its HD contemporaries, but its production values are about on level with (maybe less than) Reflex.

You are way way off with that bolded statement, if you are referring to dev cost.  Reflex was much cheaper to make than WaW on Wii.

I can see the CoD franchise continuing as ports on the Wii -- now that the engine exists (which was the major expense with WaW), that can continue ad infinitum.

I'm not. I am referring to the end rsults rather than the resources devoted to them. Perhaps I misspoke.

You know Call of Duty 3 was on the Wii before World at War though, right?



jarrod said:

lol, no.  MH3 was built ground up around Wii spec, there's literally no shared code with MH2.  And it looks dramatically better too, as one should would expect from a machine with double the clockspeeds, triple the memory and a superior GPU.  And it's not just looks, monster AI has been dramatically overhauled as well.  MH3 is a shining example of what developer *should* be doing with Wii, it's a game that PS2 literally couldn't handle unless it was significantly scaled down.

Any current demographic issues are directly a result of 3rd party efforts.  I agree there's some problems now, but that's entirely due to 3rd parties not cultivating those audiences in the first place.  Just look at the difference with how Activision's handled Guitar Hero versus Call of Duty on Wii, and how that's shaped the target base for each IP on the console.  This isn't something a $10 price increase would fix, if anything it'd likely make issues worse (as I seriously doubt a $10 would bring general Wii budgets in line with even AAA PS2 games, it'd still be getting mainly shovelware).

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/monster-hunter-3-hands-on

To help illustrate this point



jarrod said:

lol, no.  MH3 was built ground up around Wii spec, there's literally no shared code with MH2.  And it looks dramatically better too, as one should would expect from a machine with double the clockspeeds, triple the memory and a superior GPU.  And it's not just looks, monster AI has been dramatically overhauled as well.  MH3 is a shining example of what developer *should* be doing with Wii, it's a game that PS2 literally couldn't handle unless it was significantly scaled down.

Any current demographic issues are directly a result of 3rd party efforts.  I agree there's some problems now, but that's entirely due to 3rd parties not cultivating those audiences in the first place.  Just look at the difference with how Activision's handled Guitar Hero versus Call of Duty on Wii, and how that's shaped the target base for each IP on the console.  This isn't something a $10 price increase would fix, if anything it'd likely make issues worse (as I seriously doubt a $10 would bring general Wii budgets in line with even AAA PS2 games, it'd still be getting mainly shovelware).

The bolded is 100% conjecture, on your part.  And actually, so is the italicized.  I heard different -- have a link?

EDIT: nm, I see that Khuutra's link says "new engine"... also later in the article it says "It is an exceptionally good-looking Wii game, even if most of the animation is recognisable from the PS2 version of Monster Hunter 2"

...hmm, isn't animation supposed to be one of the big savings of developing on the Wii?  Sounds like they re-used their PS2 anims.  So the code is new... but some of the major art resources are re-used.  I call that a port, at least somewhat.

 

So is that where 3rd parties should come from, then?  PS2 games ported to the Wii, for quality game experiences?  Indeed, many of the best Wii games are PS2 ports, like Okami, and it looks like MH3 is something of a port as well.



 

Procrastinato, you are reaching on that point and I think it would be better if you let that go, since animations would be one of the only art resources that's being re-used - you can read the rest of the article to help illustrate that.

Now, I do have a solution to this, but you're not going to like it, and it's not going to happen, and it's not really possible - but it is more tenable than just raising prices by ten dollars.



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Procrastinato said:
jarrod said:

lol, no.  MH3 was built ground up around Wii spec, there's literally no shared code with MH2.  And it looks dramatically better too, as one should would expect from a machine with double the clockspeeds, triple the memory and a superior GPU.  And it's not just looks, monster AI has been dramatically overhauled as well.  MH3 is a shining example of what developer *should* be doing with Wii, it's a game that PS2 literally couldn't handle unless it was significantly scaled down.

Any current demographic issues are directly a result of 3rd party efforts.  I agree there's some problems now, but that's entirely due to 3rd parties not cultivating those audiences in the first place.  Just look at the difference with how Activision's handled Guitar Hero versus Call of Duty on Wii, and how that's shaped the target base for each IP on the console.  This isn't something a $10 price increase would fix, if anything it'd likely make issues worse (as I seriously doubt a $10 would bring general Wii budgets in line with even AAA PS2 games, it'd still be getting mainly shovelware).

The bolded is 100% conjecture, on your part.  And actually, so is the italicized.  I heard different -- have a link?

EDIT: nm, I see that Khuutra's link says "new engine"

There's a link above me.  Any "source" to your own "heard" shared code notions, I'm curious as to why you'd think that exactly?

And the latter "conjecture" is just common sense... 3rd parties relegated Wii to old ports, spinoffs, shovelware and niche games from the start, when they should've been making AAA stuff for the clear market leader.  You have to cultivate your audience, which Nintendo did on Wii and 3rd parties did elsewhere.  And now, that's where the games (mostly) sell.

Basically everyone bet on HD and it (largely) hasn't paid off going by the alarming frequency of studio and even publisher closures.  It seems like it's getting to the point where you either have a hit, or you have bankruptcy. Basically everyone's screwed at this point, developers are locked into expensive/risky HD games, publishers are locked into into the false dichotomy of hardcore vs casual, and the actual massmarket (ie: Wii owners, 70% of which also owned a PS2 according to NPD) are locked into a sea of shovelware.  Worst generation ever.



Khuutra said:
Procrastinato, you are reaching on that point and I think it would be better if you let that go, since animations would be one of the only art resources that's being re-used - you can read the rest of the article to help illustrate that.

Now, I do have a solution to this, but you're not going to like it, and it's not going to happen, and it's not really possible - but it is more tenable than just raising prices by ten dollars.

What's the solution, and why wouldn't I like it?

 

btw: did anyone bother figuring out how many units/titles it took to garner EA that $137M this quarter for Wii, and also the $137M for PS3, or are you all just assuming that its "about the same"?



 

Procrastinato said:
Khuutra said:
Procrastinato, you are reaching on that point and I think it would be better if you let that go, since animations would be one of the only art resources that's being re-used - you can read the rest of the article to help illustrate that.

Now, I do have a solution to this, but you're not going to like it, and it's not going to happen, and it's not really possible - but it is more tenable than just raising prices by ten dollars.

What's the solution, and why wouldn't I like it?

Because it requires acknowledging the idea that third parties may be responsible for the current situation - not that they're at fault, so to speak, but that the demographic split is of their own doing.

Look, we agree that the demographic split is the primary reason that games like Call of Duty don't sell as well on the Wii, right? The typical Call of Duty buyer owns an HD connsole, yes?



Khuutra said:
Procrastinato said:
Khuutra said:
Procrastinato, you are reaching on that point and I think it would be better if you let that go, since animations would be one of the only art resources that's being re-used - you can read the rest of the article to help illustrate that.

Now, I do have a solution to this, but you're not going to like it, and it's not going to happen, and it's not really possible - but it is more tenable than just raising prices by ten dollars.

What's the solution, and why wouldn't I like it?

Because it requires acknowledging the idea that third parties may be responsible for the current situation - not that they're at fault, so to speak, but that the demographic split is of their own doing.

Look, we agree that the demographic split is the primary reason that games like Call of Duty don't sell as well on the Wii, right? The typical Call of Duty buyer owns an HD connsole, yes?

 

Yeah, the demographic scatter is the primary reason Wii games are so unprofitable for 3rd parties -- they find it hard to target their traditional demographic there, and they are not used to the blue ocean demographic (like Ninty is), so they find it difficult to create games for the blue ocean.

I'm not really addressing that, however.  I'm addressing Reggies recent comments about how he wants to see games like AC2, etc. on the Wii.  I'm suggesting that, that just isn't going to happen, because the Wii is all about the blue ocean, and not about the traditional demographic at all.  If traditional demographic games come to the Wii, they need to cost more... or something.  The buyers just aren't there.



 

lol. MH3's less of a "port" than MW2 if code/asset reuse is what we're going by.

Also, the article's not totally correct even, monster animations were hugely increased/improved in MH3. It's the standard character animations that look like basically a PS2 retread, though even there there's huge additions thanks to swimming.