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Forums - PC - PC gamer hatred of MW2 is laughably AWFUL!

richardhutnik said:
Xelloss said:
richardhutnik said:
Xelloss said:

GG IW, you might be rolling in bank from the console versions, but you still missed out on tens of millions you would have had, had you not been so arrogant.

 

 

What 10s of millions were going to buy Modern Warfare 2?  How copies of the PC version of COD4 were sold?  Someone here said it outsold the console versions, making COD4 a 20+ million total sales title, which it hasn't shown to me.  Millions of pirated copies of a gamer doesn't matter to a game company at all.  And if a game is pirated at a rate of 10 copies for every sale, then that is a pandemic problem. 

Have any idea what the total sales for COD4 were on the PC?  There is indication that piracy was rampant though:

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2008/01/17/call_of_duty_4_piracy_is_rampant/1

 

 Tens of millions of dollars, not units. Noone is saying CoD4 sold tens of millions of units on PC, but Acti pockets somewhere in the range of 30-40$ per unit sold, so if it sits at around 6% on PC and that = 500k units, where PC sales should be in the 15-20% of console range... for easy math lets just triple the figure and say a million sales, or roughly speaking somewhere in the range of 30-40 million dollars lost give or take. Very rough numbers to be sure, but worst case its definately over 10million$ lost... best case - could be as high as 60-70 million$ over the course of a couple years... so its not chump change.

 

 As for piracy, that has no relevance here. Unless you are going to try and assert that the general piracy rate has changed very recently and very drastically and there is no evidence to support that.

AND if the costs of the PC approximate what it generates in revenue, then Activision crunches the numbers and decides it just isn't worth it going that route.  They may find that having an integrated development route, with uniformity between products across all platforms, is the way to go.  And, if it doesn't sell well, they may decide not to support it at all, particularly when they feel they can make more money pursuing other things.  The moment you need to support having dedicated servers, and lose revenue from driving people to a matchmaking service the way Bliizzard runs there, you decide not to go with dedicated servers.  They get dropped for good.  And then you think of World of Warcraft and try to position the PC version as something you are able to extract monthly fees from, the way you do with World of Warcraft.  You make Modern Warfare a massive multiplayer gamer, for PC users. 

Based on what I have read Activision doing, this is on their mind.  Forego the hardcore community, and either have the PC version map to the console version, or do a new version, which is massive multiplayer.  Of course, the hardcore PC gamer is in an uproar over it, but Activision is thinking maximizing revenues above this, by killing off piracy to boot, and also keeping development costs.  This, in the mind of executives feels like a big win for them.

I don't know if you've been reading but the game has been hacked and cracked every which way. Everyone can play on IWNet, legal or not, and VAC is way too slow to ban cheaters. Also people unlocked the console and there are a whole lot of modded servers out there, for instance there's a server where just by entering you hit lvl 70, and you can't tell it from a normal server. So if you want to level normally you are kinda screwed, on top of hidden game types, perks and other stuff.

If anything IW/AV created a shitstorm and who knows, maybe some hacker out there will be lucky enough to find a backdoor into LIVE and then the entire PC hate will ruin the Xbox version as well, thus proving one thing, don't fuck off the people with the open platform by making them use a "closed" game



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richardhutnik said:
Xelloss said:
richardhutnik said:
Xelloss said:

GG IW, you might be rolling in bank from the console versions, but you still missed out on tens of millions you would have had, had you not been so arrogant.

 

 

What 10s of millions were going to buy Modern Warfare 2?  How copies of the PC version of COD4 were sold?  Someone here said it outsold the console versions, making COD4 a 20+ million total sales title, which it hasn't shown to me.  Millions of pirated copies of a gamer doesn't matter to a game company at all.  And if a game is pirated at a rate of 10 copies for every sale, then that is a pandemic problem. 

Have any idea what the total sales for COD4 were on the PC?  There is indication that piracy was rampant though:

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2008/01/17/call_of_duty_4_piracy_is_rampant/1

 

 Tens of millions of dollars, not units. Noone is saying CoD4 sold tens of millions of units on PC, but Acti pockets somewhere in the range of 30-40$ per unit sold, so if it sits at around 6% on PC and that = 500k units, where PC sales should be in the 15-20% of console range... for easy math lets just triple the figure and say a million sales, or roughly speaking somewhere in the range of 30-40 million dollars lost give or take. Very rough numbers to be sure, but worst case its definately over 10million$ lost... best case - could be as high as 60-70 million$ over the course of a couple years... so its not chump change.

 

 As for piracy, that has no relevance here. Unless you are going to try and assert that the general piracy rate has changed very recently and very drastically and there is no evidence to support that.

AND if the costs of the PC approximate what it generates in revenue, then Activision crunches the numbers and decides it just isn't worth it going that route.  They may find that having an integrated development route, with uniformity between products across all platforms, is the way to go.  And, if it doesn't sell well, they may decide not to support it at all, particularly when they feel they can make more money pursuing other things.  The moment you need to support having dedicated servers, and lose revenue from driving people to a matchmaking service the way Bliizzard runs there, you decide not to go with dedicated servers.  They get dropped for good.  And then you think of World of Warcraft and try to position the PC version as something you are able to extract monthly fees from, the way you do with World of Warcraft.  You make Modern Warfare a massive multiplayer gamer, for PC users. 

Based on what I have read Activision doing, this is on their mind.  Forego the hardcore community, and either have the PC version map to the console version, or do a new version, which is massive multiplayer.  Of course, the hardcore PC gamer is in an uproar over it, but Activision is thinking maximizing revenues above this, by killing off piracy to boot, and also keeping development costs.  This, in the mind of executives feels like a big win for them.

I am sorry, but to much there makes no sense. You might be right about what some execs were thinking... but that had little to do with the topic at hand. Hopefully IW does just stop supporting the PC though, will send a strong message to other companies not to fuck up so badly they have to drop a whole segment of their business.

Also, you are incorrectly framing the issue with DS and such as a hardcore vs "non-hardcore" issue. The truly hardcore CoD fans are many of those who broke down and are still playing. Its actually the more casual FPS players who , according to the sales figures, have dropped MW2 like a rock. If the new CoD isnt a "big thing" in your life, the chances of you wanting to fool around with a watered down version that makes it difficult and frustrating to find good , stable, lag free games with chill folk in the game.. are very slim. This is the key that the pro-IW folk and IW itself fails to understand. Or did, IW is sure learning it now. I have been saying that since the new system was announced, and the sales numbers have proven me right.

 People who arent hardcore about CoD just arent gonna fuck around with trash, theyre gonna go play more of whatever they are already playing or just grab a different new game until some decent FPS comes out. L4D2 release being only a week apart makes decision to drop MW2 even easier if your not a hardcore CoD fan.



KungKras said:

@richardhutnik

and you are defending this because...?

What am I defending?  I was trying to understand why Activision has done what it had done with the PC version of Modern Warfare 2.  And I was posting about that.  I can't be defending any company who abandons any part of its audience.  I am doing work for a non-profit sports organization, who has a range of people, and it can't afford to be ticking people off.  Of course, unlike Activision, the organization doesn't exist to maximize profits, but to serve the needs of the community.



mirgro said:
richardhutnik said:
Xelloss said:
richardhutnik said:
Xelloss said:

GG IW, you might be rolling in bank from the console versions, but you still missed out on tens of millions you would have had, had you not been so arrogant.

 

 

What 10s of millions were going to buy Modern Warfare 2?  How copies of the PC version of COD4 were sold?  Someone here said it outsold the console versions, making COD4 a 20+ million total sales title, which it hasn't shown to me.  Millions of pirated copies of a gamer doesn't matter to a game company at all.  And if a game is pirated at a rate of 10 copies for every sale, then that is a pandemic problem. 

Have any idea what the total sales for COD4 were on the PC?  There is indication that piracy was rampant though:

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2008/01/17/call_of_duty_4_piracy_is_rampant/1

 

 Tens of millions of dollars, not units. Noone is saying CoD4 sold tens of millions of units on PC, but Acti pockets somewhere in the range of 30-40$ per unit sold, so if it sits at around 6% on PC and that = 500k units, where PC sales should be in the 15-20% of console range... for easy math lets just triple the figure and say a million sales, or roughly speaking somewhere in the range of 30-40 million dollars lost give or take. Very rough numbers to be sure, but worst case its definately over 10million$ lost... best case - could be as high as 60-70 million$ over the course of a couple years... so its not chump change.

 

 As for piracy, that has no relevance here. Unless you are going to try and assert that the general piracy rate has changed very recently and very drastically and there is no evidence to support that.

AND if the costs of the PC approximate what it generates in revenue, then Activision crunches the numbers and decides it just isn't worth it going that route.  They may find that having an integrated development route, with uniformity between products across all platforms, is the way to go.  And, if it doesn't sell well, they may decide not to support it at all, particularly when they feel they can make more money pursuing other things.  The moment you need to support having dedicated servers, and lose revenue from driving people to a matchmaking service the way Bliizzard runs there, you decide not to go with dedicated servers.  They get dropped for good.  And then you think of World of Warcraft and try to position the PC version as something you are able to extract monthly fees from, the way you do with World of Warcraft.  You make Modern Warfare a massive multiplayer gamer, for PC users. 

Based on what I have read Activision doing, this is on their mind.  Forego the hardcore community, and either have the PC version map to the console version, or do a new version, which is massive multiplayer.  Of course, the hardcore PC gamer is in an uproar over it, but Activision is thinking maximizing revenues above this, by killing off piracy to boot, and also keeping development costs.  This, in the mind of executives feels like a big win for them.

I don't know if you've been reading but the game has been hacked and cracked every which way. Everyone can play on IWNet, legal or not, and VAC is way too slow to ban cheaters. Also people unlocked the console and there are a whole lot of modded servers out there, for instance there's a server where just by entering you hit lvl 70, and you can't tell it from a normal server. So if you want to level normally you are kinda screwed, on top of hidden game types, perks and other stuff.

If anything IW/AV created a shitstorm and who knows, maybe some hacker out there will be lucky enough to find a backdoor into LIVE and then the entire PC hate will ruin the Xbox version as well, thus proving one thing, don't fuck off the people with the open platform by making them use a "closed" game

Well, looks like Activision may be finding out that the PC gaming market can't be treated the same as the console market, despite them wanting it to be.  The PC gamer market takes far more ownership of their games, which is likely the main source of the outrage by what Activision has done.  It is this belief by the PC gamers that made them think Modern Warfare was THEIR game, and an open product like Linux is, when it actually isn't.



richardhutnik said:

Well, looks like Activision may be finding out that the PC gaming market can't be treated the same as the console market, despite them wanting it to be.  The PC gamer market takes far more ownership of their games, which is likely the main source of the outrage by what Activision has done.  It is this belief by the PC gamers that made them think Modern Warfare was THEIR game, and an open product like Linux is, when it actually isn't.

But it is, when I dole out that 50 bucks (fucking 60 for this one) then it's mine and I should be able to do with it as I please as long as I don't profit from it in any way. If I want low grav, insta gib MP5's then ffs I wnt low grav instagib MP5's.



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richardhutnik said:
KungKras said:

@richardhutnik

and you are defending this because...?

What am I defending?  I was trying to understand why Activision has done what it had done with the PC version of Modern Warfare 2.  And I was posting about that.  I can't be defending any company who abandons any part of its audience.  I am doing work for a non-profit sports organization, who has a range of people, and it can't afford to be ticking people off.  Of course, unlike Activision, the organization doesn't exist to maximize profits, but to serve the needs of the community.

I would hardly call IW's desicion "maximizing profits" Because it didn't help against piracy, and it certainly didn't help sales, all it did was to piss people off. They tried to fight piracy at the costy of customer experience, and they failed. Sure they were thinking logically, but they were applying the wrong kind of logic.



I LOVE ICELAND!

KungKras said:
richardhutnik said:
KungKras said:

@richardhutnik

and you are defending this because...?

What am I defending?  I was trying to understand why Activision has done what it had done with the PC version of Modern Warfare 2.  And I was posting about that.  I can't be defending any company who abandons any part of its audience.  I am doing work for a non-profit sports organization, who has a range of people, and it can't afford to be ticking people off.  Of course, unlike Activision, the organization doesn't exist to maximize profits, but to serve the needs of the community.

I would hardly call IW's desicion "maximizing profits" Because it didn't help against piracy, and it certainly didn't help sales, all it did was to piss people off. They tried to fight piracy at the costy of customer experience, and they failed. Sure they were thinking logically, but they were applying the wrong kind of logic.

They had a lot of hidden things which you could only access once you hacked the game to unlock the console. It seems like all they wanted was money from DLC, as shown DLC is definitely not a hot subject to PC gamers since their communities can make the same content and more for absolutely free. They are learning it the hard way right now, and I agree with maximizing profits. It seems the BBB is taking refunds for the game and a whole bunch of people are getting refunds on it citing rampant cheating hacking and stuff as the reasons.



mirgro said:
richardhutnik said:
 

Well, looks like Activision may be finding out that the PC gaming market can't be treated the same as the console market, despite them wanting it to be.  The PC gamer market takes far more ownership of their games, which is likely the main source of the outrage by what Activision has done.  It is this belief by the PC gamers that made them think Modern Warfare was THEIR game, and an open product like Linux is, when it actually isn't.

But it is, when I dole out that 50 bucks (fucking 60 for this one) then it's mine and I should be able to do with it as I please as long as I don't profit from it in any way. If I want low grav, insta gib MP5's then ffs I wnt low grav instagib MP5's.

And that seems to be a problem here.  According to the licensing agreements, you don't actually own software.  You are paying companies that make it, for the priviledge of using it.  Unless they agreement gives you the ability to mod the game, or do tweaks, you can violate the agreement they set up.  In regards to what you wrote, if you then go into the game, and hack it so that you have an edge when playing online over people who don't have it, the company feels you have damaged their product by ruining the community. 

BUT, the nature of PC gaming is the belief you have a right to modify the game as you like, and taking that away is upsetting the PC gaming community who wants to mod.  However, I believe we are witnessing a shift here where the game companies are taking over the modding of things, and then reselling them, because it is more profitable.  It would be good to be aware of this and speak out against it.  But, the wallet is the ultimate decider of things.  The industry will go where it sees the money is.

In short, you will likely have the ability to do what you want with the game, so long as the major publishers maximize profits from doing this.  And now, welcome to the world of videogames as Hollywood.  Hollywood, for example, cracked down on individuals who happened to sell edited versions of films to Christian Fundamentalists, so they had "clean" versions of their films.  I believe these individuals also got the original copy to.  The creators of the film didn't want their works tinkered with, so thus the crack down.



KungKras said:
richardhutnik said:
KungKras said:

@richardhutnik

and you are defending this because...?

What am I defending?  I was trying to understand why Activision has done what it had done with the PC version of Modern Warfare 2.  And I was posting about that.  I can't be defending any company who abandons any part of its audience.  I am doing work for a non-profit sports organization, who has a range of people, and it can't afford to be ticking people off.  Of course, unlike Activision, the organization doesn't exist to maximize profits, but to serve the needs of the community.

I would hardly call IW's desicion "maximizing profits" Because it didn't help against piracy, and it certainly didn't help sales, all it did was to piss people off. They tried to fight piracy at the costy of customer experience, and they failed. Sure they were thinking logically, but they were applying the wrong kind of logic.

Maximizing profits isn't something look at just a single instance.  It involves a big picture.  In this, Activision decided to save on development costs by putting out the exact same game across all platforms.  This enabled them to do a unified QA on the content, to make sure it is what they felt optimal across all platforms.  They did the same with the playermatching, dropping the dedicated servers.  It comes out of the logic of business executives who will end up shorting aspects of the game community, for what they see is the bigger picture.  Does it suck if they ignore some people?  You bet it is, but they try to think strategically.  Their job, as a publically traded company, is to maximize profits. 



richardhutnik said:
mirgro said:
richardhutnik said:
 

Well, looks like Activision may be finding out that the PC gaming market can't be treated the same as the console market, despite them wanting it to be.  The PC gamer market takes far more ownership of their games, which is likely the main source of the outrage by what Activision has done.  It is this belief by the PC gamers that made them think Modern Warfare was THEIR game, and an open product like Linux is, when it actually isn't.

But it is, when I dole out that 50 bucks (fucking 60 for this one) then it's mine and I should be able to do with it as I please as long as I don't profit from it in any way. If I want low grav, insta gib MP5's then ffs I wnt low grav instagib MP5's.

And that seems to be a problem here.  According to the licensing agreements, you don't actually own software.  You are paying companies that make it, for the priviledge of using it.  Unless they agreement gives you the ability to mod the game, or do tweaks, you can violate the agreement they set up.  In regards to what you wrote, if you then go into the game, and hack it so that you have an edge when playing online over people who don't have it, the company feels you have damaged their product by ruining the community. 

BUT, the nature of PC gaming is the belief you have a right to modify the game as you like, and taking that away is upsetting the PC gaming community who wants to mod.  However, I believe we are witnessing a shift here where the game companies are taking over the modding of things, and then reselling them, because it is more profitable.  It would be good to be aware of this and speak out against it.  But, the wallet is the ultimate decider of things.  The industry will go where it sees the money is.

In short, you will likely have the ability to do what you want with the game, so long as the major publishers maximize profits from doing this.  And now, welcome to the world of videogames as Hollywood.  Hollywood, for example, cracked down on individuals who happened to sell edited versions of films to Christian Fundamentalists, so they had "clean" versions of their films.  I believe these individuals also got the original copy to.  The creators of the film didn't want their works tinkered with, so thus the crack down.

AHA! Going by your definition then selling your games to someone else is also illegal, just like piracy since just about all EULA's state that you cannot pass on your license to someone else without the company's approval.