Frasman said: omgwtfbbq said: BenKenobi88 said: Yeah...you can make the argument that modchips allow independents to make games and allow for other legal uses...but everyone knows almost everybody uses them to pirate games. Doesn't matter. CD/DVD burners have many legal uses but many people use it to circumvent copyright. Does this mean that they should be illegal? DeCSS is required for me to play DVDs on Linux, but it can also be used to strip the encryption from DVD movies and copy them. Does this mean it should be illegal? When copyright infringement is illegal, why do we have to make the process illegal too? I could understand why it would make sense if its SOLE purpose was to perform illegal activities, but there is just too many legal uses to just say "most people do this". We don't have any usage statistics. So then suck it up. Catch the people actually doing illegal things. It's all good for you who lives in America to say "well who cares about mod chips, they're all a bunch of pirates anyway" but you'd be feeling different if you were still waiting for Metroid like we are, if you didn't get Zack & Wiki until December, if you didn't get SMG until three weeks after everyone else has played it. If you had to wait FIVE MONTHS for Super Paper Mario. And then you had to pay almost double for the privilage. You'd be singing a very different tune if you got our treatment. And yes, I have a WiiKey in my Wii, and it's going to pay for itself when I import Zack & Wiki 2 months earlier than I'd get it and for AU$40 cheaper Nintendo bring it on themselves by having region coding in the first place. You own a Nintendo Wii, hence you have to abide by Nintendo's user agreement. Installing a mod chip, for whatever reason, is in conflict with that agreement. Nintendo has every right to enforce this issue.

That doesn't cut the mustard I'm afraid. Law here in Australia is that region encoding is anti-consumer and consumers (that would be me) have every legal right to modify their hardware to use software from a different region (that would be, installing a mod chip), and Nintendo have no legal right to interfere with me, no matter what Nintendo's user agreement says (which are legally questionable at best, even in places where they don't contradict law).

Of course, there's nothing stopping them from cracking down on production of mod chips in countries in which they are illegal, so long as they ARE illegal in those countries (I don't know the law in Hong Kong, so no comment). I never said what they did was illegal. I just said that it pissed me off that they are going after the mod chips rather than the software pirates, since mod chips have legal uses and ownership of one does not necessarily mean the user is doing something illegal.

 

User agreements are generally considered illegal I thought. Or at the very least could be argued in court.

I mean they are after purchase contracts. Which are extremely illegal, since you've already paid for the product and have opened it, therefore you can't return it.

omgwtfbbq said: Thanks, just pick a number that I couldn't possibly do. Legal uses*: 1) Playing games from a different region 2) Playing backups of legally purchased games 3) Using homebrew software 4) Developing your own software 5) Modifying legally purchased games As opposed to the illegal uses: 1) Playing games that you have not purchased *IANAL. Laws vary by country. No responsiblity taken if you are arrested taking my advice.

1)  Simple solution, buy a console from that region instead.  For example, one could buy a Japanese console to play Japanes games.

2)  This has always been a gray area in law.  Certain products will let you make one backup for personal use only.  I'm not even sure if games are in that category.

3)  Homebrew software to do what?  Legality here all depends on what it is used for.

4)  I would guess that 98% of the public doesn't know the first thing about writing their own software for a computer let alone a console.  Again, another legally gray area.

5)  This is a new one to me.  Can you provide insight into how you've modified your legally purchased games?


As a more direct question however, how many people who have modchips do you think actually use them for what you consider legal purposes?

Mod chips essentially allow you to do things that Nintendo apparently doesn't want you to do. For example, while I was working at a flea market around here, at the game stand, my boss would mod your PS2 for.....30 dollars, if I remember, which included the mod chip and a new clear plastic top-loader case, which came in like 4 colors. The ONLY THING that ANYONE used that for was to play pirated games. That my boss created and sold to them. His way around whatever laws are in place was to ask them if they already had a copy of the actual game, and then they would lie and say yes, thereby exonerating him. I worked there for 3 years, must've seen at least 50-100 people get their PS2 modded, and not ONE of them ever had anything on his mind regarding the mod except that he could now play pirated games he bought from my boss for 10 dollars instead of buying the actual game for 20-50 dollars.

Also, every game bought from anyone got copied to his hard drive at his house, which he would then use to make pirate copies with. He had virtually every PS2 and Xbox game ever made on his hard drive(s). And you wonder why Sony likes the fact that blu-ray is hard to copy. Or burn.

Words Of Wisdom said: omgwtfbbq said: With the main difference that robbery is illegal and importing games is not. So your argument = fail. And Nintendo was able to raid a modchip factory because...?

Because of draconian copyright laws that are in place in the US because our legislators are coprorate whores and then the US pushes enforcement of its laws around the world.

Final-Fan said: Words Of Wisdom said: omgwtfbbq said: With the main difference that robbery is illegal and importing games is not. So your argument = fail. And Nintendo was able to raid a modchip factory because...? Because of draconian copyright laws that are in place in the US because our legislators are coprorate whores and then the US pushes enforcement of its laws around the world.

As a small side note, anyone looking for more information about these things mod-chips, disc limitations, etc. should do some research on the ESA and relatively new ECA groups.

omgwtfbbq said: BenKenobi88 said: Yes, it's unfair that Europeans and other countries usually pay more for games...but isn't even MORE unfair when you decide to buy a $1 copy of a game? That means WE'RE paying $50 a pop, and you're, in reality, paying much less. And you wonder why the cycle continues. Huh? How does importing games from US mean that I'm paying $1? Of course the potential is there for me to play pirate games (actually not really. I don't have enough spare bandwidth to download games, and copying games requires a special dvd reader which I don't have). Just like you always have the potential to install a WiiKey or to copy DVDs. Just because the potential is there doesn't mean I do it. Sorry but your argument is bogus. There is nothing wrong with Wiikeys. In fact, to abide by law in Australia, Nintendo should be selling Wiis with Wiikeys preinstalled, since region locking is illegal over here. So in reality, it's Nintendo who is breaking Australian law by selling region locked consoles and now are making things worse by trying to shut down the only means of unlocking it.

BenKenobi88 is caught with his pants down and omgwtfbbq wins the thread!

Paul Hogan is coming to arrest Nintendo. 

Words Of Wisdom said: omgwtfbbq said: Thanks, just pick a number that I couldn't possibly do. Legal uses*: 1) Playing games from a different region 2) Playing backups of legally purchased games 3) Using homebrew software 4) Developing your own software 5) Modifying legally purchased games As opposed to the illegal uses: 1) Playing games that you have not purchased *IANAL. Laws vary by country. No responsiblity taken if you are arrested taking my advice. 1) Simple solution, buy a console from that region instead. For example, one could buy a Japanese console to play Japanes games. 2) This has always been a gray area in law. Certain products will let you make one backup for personal use only. I'm not even sure if games are in that category. 3) Homebrew software to do what? Legality here all depends on what it is used for. 4) I would guess that 98% of the public doesn't know the first thing about writing their own software for a computer let alone a console. Again, another legally gray area. 5) This is a new one to me. Can you provide insight into how you've modified your legally purchased games? As a more direct question however, how many people who have modchips do you think actually use them for what you consider legal purposes?

1) sure. I'll just spend AU$1000 on three Wiis (PAL, NA, and Japan, not including shipping), and hook them up, organise my games based on where I bought them from, etc. Or I can spend AU$480 and buy a brand new Wii with mod chip installed. Which is the easier solution? This is a stupid argument. You know as well as I do the only feasable way to have region-free playback is to use a mod chip.

2) In many countries, backups are perfectly legal. Depends on how retarded the copyright laws are. Many people who have kids with sticky fingers back up all their games and only let the kids touch the backups.

3) Of course. But the point is, there should be no restrictions on the running of homebrew applications, just because they're homebrew. If you have software and do something illegal with it of course you're breaking the law.

4) So? You didn't say "name things that Joe Public will want to do with his modified console". You said "name things that a mod chip allows that is legal". I would personally love to write some software for the Wii. Unfortunately, Wii homebrew has not been cracked (hopefully soon)

5) I haven't done it, I prefer to play my games as they're meant to be. One example is the action replay (although it's debatable whether this can be included as a mod chip, since it's just something you plug in rather than an actual hardware modification) which allows cheat codes and other things to be done (arwing in OOT)

The point is, hardware modifications make all these things possible. There are many people who mod their consoles for these reasons, just as there are many people who mod their consoles purely to play pirate games. In practise, the act of piracy is illegal, it should not be necessary to make the means illegal too. Just like it is here in Australia. 

Words Of Wisdom said: omgwtfbbq said: Thanks, just pick a number that I couldn't possibly do. Legal uses*: 1) Playing games from a different region 2) Playing backups of legally purchased games 3) Using homebrew software 4) Developing your own software 5) Modifying legally purchased games As opposed to the illegal uses: 1) Playing games that you have not purchased *IANAL. Laws vary by country. No responsiblity taken if you are arrested taking my advice. 1) Simple solution, buy a console from that region instead. For example, one could buy a Japanese console to play Japanes games. 2) This has always been a gray area in law. Certain products will let you make one backup for personal use only. I'm not even sure if games are in that category. 3) Homebrew software to do what? Legality here all depends on what it is used for. 4) I would guess that 98% of the public doesn't know the first thing about writing their own software for a computer let alone a console. Again, another legally gray area. 5) This is a new one to me. Can you provide insight into how you've modified your legally purchased games? As a more direct question however, how many people who have modchips do you think actually use them for what you consider legal purposes?

1. In Australia, apparently, the law states that he shouldn't have to.
2. Gray area?  Yes, but EULAs don't necessarily get to lay down the law whenever such a gray area exists, as they are trying to do. 
3. As long as the answer isn't "pirating", I think it's legal.  Am I wrong?
4. Completely legal but not widespread =/= "legally gray area".  Unless there is a better reason you say it's a gray area?

I wish Nintendo would go after the Viis instead. 

a person has every right to buy & install a modchip in their system. my ps2 is modded, and has been for years. i use it to play import games, run an SNES emulator, watch VCDs/SVCDs and play divx movies. I also have some backups of games that are simply too hard to find or too expensive (ie: Rez).

Guess what, if the ps3 was the run away success that some people thought it would be, these groups would be developing chips/hacks for the ps3. since the wii is based on older technology (and was basically cracked by time it hit retail) and a must have electronics item right now, obviously there are gonna be people supplying modchips and people buying them.

simply because the vast majority of people buy modchips to play games they don't own dosen't mean every person with a modded console does this. as i see it, every system has impressive capabilities that are locked away until it is chipped. the original xbox was awesome once it was modded. when the same happens to the ps3, there will be some awesome features unlocked.