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Forums - General - BBC: Horizon - Consciousness and free will

ultima on 25 October 2009
Slimebeast said:
Final-Fan said:
Slimebeast, you really have to address my point that physicists say they have PROVEN that there is randomness in quantum physics. Not pseudo-randomness like rolling dice, but actual TRUE randomness.

Why do you think they are wrong?

No they havent or else there wouldn't be room for deterministic theories about the universe. And there is.

Yes, they have proven it. Bell's theorem.



           

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Slimebeast on 26 October 2009
Final-Fan said:
Slimebeast said:
Final-Fan said:
Slimebeast, you really have to address my point that physicists say they have PROVEN that there is randomness in quantum physics. Not pseudo-randomness like rolling dice, but actual TRUE randomness.

Why do you think they are wrong?

No they havent or else there wouldn't be room for deterministic theories about the universe. And there is.

So your response is just "no they are wrong", no criticism of the math but simply the assertion that it must not be true? 
See below.
ultima said:
Slimebeast said:
Final-Fan said:
Slimebeast, you really have to address my point that physicists say they have PROVEN that there is randomness in quantum physics. Not pseudo-randomness like rolling dice, but actual TRUE randomness.

Why do you think they are wrong?

No they havent or else there wouldn't be room for deterministic theories about the universe. And there is.

Yes, they have proven it. Bell's theorem.

Hidden variables. There could be stuff in the fifth dimension that causes the particles to behave in what to us seems randomly or in a probabilistic manner.



Final-Fan on 26 October 2009

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_variable_theory

This seems to be what you are referring to, but I don't know which of the theories resembles what you are talking about.

Bohm's idea sounds too mystic for my taste.



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Slimebeast on 26 October 2009
Final-Fan said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_variable_theory

This seems to be what you are referring to, but I don't know which of the theories resembles what you are talking about.

Bohm's idea sounds too mystic for my taste.

I don't know which one in particular, but I remember reading about it some time ago and my understanding was that they're playing around with theories about stuff going on in other dimensions that are currently unmeasurable by us.



Final-Fan on 26 October 2009
Slimebeast said:
Final-Fan said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_variable_theory

This seems to be what you are referring to, but I don't know which of the theories resembles what you are talking about.

Bohm's idea sounds too mystic for my taste.

I don't know which one in particular, but I remember reading about it some time ago and my understanding was that they're playing around with theories about stuff going on in other dimensions that are currently unmeasurable by us.

I wanna clear something up:  is your position that the other dimensions are outside this universe, so none of our physical laws that govern this universe allow randomness, but randomness that happens in the other dimension(s) still happens to us deterministically? 

Or is it that the randomness isn't really random at all, and even if it's coming from another dimension it's still somehow deterministic in origin in the other dimension as well as our own universe? 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

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Slimebeast on 27 October 2009
Final-Fan said:
Slimebeast said:
Final-Fan said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_variable_theory

This seems to be what you are referring to, but I don't know which of the theories resembles what you are talking about.

Bohm's idea sounds too mystic for my taste.

I don't know which one in particular, but I remember reading about it some time ago and my understanding was that they're playing around with theories about stuff going on in other dimensions that are currently unmeasurable by us.

I wanna clear something up:  is your position that the other dimensions are outside this universe, so none of our physical laws that govern this universe allow randomness, but randomness that happens in the other dimension(s) still happens to us deterministically? 

Or is it that the randomness isn't really random at all, and even if it's coming from another dimension it's still somehow deterministic in origin in the other dimension as well as our own universe? 

I'm confused by your questions.

My position is that there's no randomness. There are possibly other dimensions (that are part of our universe) that we can't currently measure and we don't know their nature (today we can only guess, like string theory does), but if we did know their nature and could detect what's going on there it would explain the 'random' behaviour of particles in the four dimensions that we are able to measure today.



Final-Fan on 27 October 2009
Slimebeast said:
Final-Fan said:
Slimebeast said:
Final-Fan said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_variable_theory

This seems to be what you are referring to, but I don't know which of the theories resembles what you are talking about.

Bohm's idea sounds too mystic for my taste.

I don't know which one in particular, but I remember reading about it some time ago and my understanding was that they're playing around with theories about stuff going on in other dimensions that are currently unmeasurable by us.

I wanna clear something up:  is your position that the other dimensions are outside this universe, so none of our physical laws that govern this universe allow randomness, but randomness that happens in the other dimension(s) still happens to us deterministically? 

Or is it that the randomness isn't really random at all, and even if it's coming from another dimension it's still somehow deterministic in origin in the other dimension as well as our own universe? 

I'm confused by your questions.

My position is that there's no randomness. There are possibly other dimensions (that are part of our universe) that we can't currently measure and we don't know their nature (today we can only guess, like string theory does), but if we did know their nature and could detect what's going on there it would explain the 'random' behaviour of particles in the four dimensions that we are able to measure today.

Okay forget the other universe part.  I misunderstood. 

It sounds like you hold the second position, that it's NOT the case that the other dimension is somehow exempt from being deterministic instead of random, but RATHER that the randomness is not really random, only seeming to be. 

But why can't the other dimensions have true randomness if they can have a different nature?  In other words, if you don't know their nature, how do you know that their nature does not extend to having randomness -- what has been proven about the nature of the other dimensions that results in you knowing that limitation? 

I don't know too much about quantum physics and especially string theory, so forgive me if the question has an obvious answer to you. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Slimebeast on 27 October 2009
Final-Fan said:
Slimebeast said:
Final-Fan said:
Slimebeast said:
Final-Fan said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_variable_theory

This seems to be what you are referring to, but I don't know which of the theories resembles what you are talking about.

Bohm's idea sounds too mystic for my taste.

I don't know which one in particular, but I remember reading about it some time ago and my understanding was that they're playing around with theories about stuff going on in other dimensions that are currently unmeasurable by us.

I wanna clear something up:  is your position that the other dimensions are outside this universe, so none of our physical laws that govern this universe allow randomness, but randomness that happens in the other dimension(s) still happens to us deterministically? 

Or is it that the randomness isn't really random at all, and even if it's coming from another dimension it's still somehow deterministic in origin in the other dimension as well as our own universe? 

I'm confused by your questions.

My position is that there's no randomness. There are possibly other dimensions (that are part of our universe) that we can't currently measure and we don't know their nature (today we can only guess, like string theory does), but if we did know their nature and could detect what's going on there it would explain the 'random' behaviour of particles in the four dimensions that we are able to measure today.

Okay forget the other universe part.  I misunderstood. 

It sounds like you hold the second position, that it's NOT the case that the other dimension is somehow exempt from being deterministic instead of random, but RATHER that the randomness is not really random, only seeming to be. 

But why can't the other dimensions have true randomness if they can have a different nature?  In other words, if you don't know their nature, how do you know that their nature does not extend to having randomness -- what has been proven about the nature of the other dimensions that results in you knowing that limitation? 

I don't know too much about quantum physics and especially string theory, so forgive me if the question has an obvious answer to you. 

Well, of course since we dont know, in theory the other dimensions could have randomness. But as I said, I don't believe in that concept. It doesn't make sense. Random is like magic.



Final-Fan on 27 October 2009
Slimebeast said:
Well, of course since we dont know, in theory the other dimensions could have randomness. But as I said, I don't believe in that concept. It doesn't make sense. Random is like magic.

So you're not saying "it can't be random", you're saying "I don't believe it can be random". 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Slimebeast on 27 October 2009
Final-Fan said:
Slimebeast said:
Well, of course since we dont know, in theory the other dimensions could have randomness. But as I said, I don't believe in that concept. It doesn't make sense. Random is like magic.

So you're not saying "it can't be random", you're saying "I don't believe it can be random". 

What's the difference? Cos I'm saying both.