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Forums - General - BBC: Horizon - Consciousness and free will

Slimebeast said:
Final-Fan said:
Well, as long as you're saying "IMO" and not claiming that you're definitely right. Or, I suppose, if you claim you're definitely right but admit that your certainty is faith-based.

I completely understand that lacking proof you want to go with your gut (although I myself try not to rule something out on a gut feeling) but you must admit that it doesn't constitute evidence supporting that conclusion.

Yes, it's more 'IMO' than 'it's definately so'. But I would say it's more than just gut feeling or faith based.

I also am aware that it doesn't constitue hard evidence.

... I'd say it's not.  There is no reason at all to think your idea is true other than your personal conviction that particles do not act randomly, from what I understand of the discussion so far. 



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Final-Fan said:
Final-Fan said:
Well, as long as you're saying "IMO" and not claiming that you're definitely right. Or, I suppose, if you claim you're definitely right but admit that your certainty is faith-based.

I completely understand that lacking proof you want to go with your gut (although I myself try not to rule something out on a gut feeling) but you must admit that it doesn't constitute evidence supporting that conclusion.

And ultima has a point; it isn't that there isn't evidence for randomness, it's that you believe there is some other factor for which there is no evidence at all that invalidates that evidence.

So? Many scientists and philosofers do this all the time. They have dedicated their careers to it, do it as their full time jobs, get public funding for it and move science and knowledge forward by proposing alternate explanations, theories and stuff. It's perfectly valid in my opinion.

Plus I wanna lift up one thing. It's the essence of randomness. I'm not an expert on this, I havent read much such material but my gut feeling tells me that not just Einstein but many modern scientists feel the same about randomness. That it's essence is such that randomness (and probabilism) is nonsense when explaining things. I argue that it's just a descritptional term. I have a hard time explaining it myself, what I exactly mean.

I think it bodes down to arguments about logic and reality, and wheather everything has a cause, and weather randomness is a possible 'cause' or not.



ultima said:
Slimebeast said:
Final-Fan said:
Slimebeast said:
Final-Fan said:
But why would the soul have free will? How could it? -- wouldn't the impulses from our soul also need a cause deterministically?

Free will compared to the physical world, or free will compared to your physical body. It's the conciousness part that is biggest 'evidence' of a soul to me. At least there's a spark of free will or force that is untied to the neuronal network.

I can't see a comp get what we call a mind or conciousness, even if it's designed as an electrical network and has access to lots of outside stimuli input sources (like hearing, sight, smell etc). I feel it hard to imagine a comp having emotions for example. How does a comp feel pain or joy or anger like living organisms do? I have a hard time imagining that.


Wait, wait. This is simply the "argument from personal incredulity" fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance What does feeling pain have to do with free will anyway?

That's how it is. I can't sit and wait for evidence that won't appear in my lifetime. I have to solve these things right here and now, and try to answer questions like if there exists a soul or not. From the evidence we do have I can't see that biology alone explains conciousness. So if we are to make an argument at all on this topic, it must be an 'argument from ignorance' or no argument at all.

I deduct things from each other. Free will is derived from the theory of the mind being partly independent from matter. Pain is a very interesting emotion. I can't imagine a comp feeling pain. I can imagine a comp reacting to potentially harmful stimuli, but I can't imagine a comp experience the feeling of pain.

If I come to the conclusion that a comp can't get a human mind, I deduct from that conclusion that the human mind must have something that is independent from the electrical activity in the neural network.

It's fine that you don't want to sit around for evidence that may not appear in you lifetime, but why neglect evidence that is present? There is a proof of randomness, and you claim it to be false in favor of, IMHO, a completely ridiculous theory (that has no evidence for it).

And a computer is very different from a human brain. I don't think it's fair to compare them this way. A CPU has an ALU that makes it lightning fast with mathematical and logical calculations. We don't have that. What makes you think that our brain doesn't have a certain component that's responsible for consciousness, that isn't present in CPUs (which would explain why computer don't have feelings)?

See my post above, about neglecting the evidence. In short I am saying that since I dont believe in the concept of randomness, I obviously assume there's other explanations or hidden factors when the tests from the quantum level appears to show evidence of randomness.

I dont mean current CPUs. I mean the theory that the brain is just a network of neurons with electric activity, in essence just like a computer, and it could all be simulated in a (future) computer (which mimics neuronal networks instead of linear threads that current CPUs process)- assuming that computer had access to input of stimuli of course (senses of smelling, hearing, seeing etc).

 

 



Slimebeast said:
Final-Fan said:
Final-Fan said:
Well, as long as you're saying "IMO" and not claiming that you're definitely right. Or, I suppose, if you claim you're definitely right but admit that your certainty is faith-based.

I completely understand that lacking proof you want to go with your gut (although I myself try not to rule something out on a gut feeling) but you must admit that it doesn't constitute evidence supporting that conclusion.
And ultima has a point; it isn't that there isn't evidence for randomness, it's that you believe there is some other factor for which there is no evidence at all that invalidates that evidence.

So? Many scientists and philosofers do this all the time. They have dedicated their careers to it, do it as their full time jobs, get public funding for it and move science and knowledge forward by proposing alternate explanations, theories and stuff. It's perfectly valid in my opinion.

Plus I wanna lift up one thing. It's the essence of randomness. I'm not an expert on this, I havent read much such material but my gut feeling tells me that not just Einstein but many modern scientists feel the same about randomness. That it's essence is such that randomness (and probabilism) is nonsense when explaining things. I argue that it's just a descritptional term. I have a hard time explaining it myself, what I exactly mean.

I think it bodes down to arguments about logic and reality, and wheather everything has a cause, and weather randomness is a possible 'cause' or not.

Okay, no.  Scientists do not say they are right about something with no evidence at all to support them. 

They may have an idea, and go out and test it, and with that evidence they may say "aha, this matches my idea" (although they should be doing their best with these tests to disprove the idea) -- but none of that is what you are doing, except the "have an idea" part. 

If you are saying that you are philosophically opposed to the existence of randomness, I think that's likely a good description of your position, but I think your philosophical objections are meaningless to science.  It's worse than apples and oranges, because at least they're both fruit

Einstein did hate randomness, but he didn't just say "well I'm uncomfortable with that concept so I'm gonna dream up hypothetical reasons it might not be so".  He tried to work out the math to nail down whether or not it was true. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Slimebeast said:
ultima said:

It's fine that you don't want to sit around for evidence that may not appear in you lifetime, but why neglect evidence that is present? There is a proof of randomness, and you claim it to be false in favor of, IMHO, a completely ridiculous theory (that has no evidence for it).

And a computer is very different from a human brain. I don't think it's fair to compare them this way. A CPU has an ALU that makes it lightning fast with mathematical and logical calculations. We don't have that. What makes you think that our brain doesn't have a certain component that's responsible for consciousness, that isn't present in CPUs (which would explain why computer don't have feelings)?

See my post above, about neglecting the evidence. In short I am saying that since I dont believe in the concept of randomness, I obviously assume there's other explanations or hidden factors when the tests from the quantum level appears to show evidence of randomness.

I dont mean current CPUs. I mean the theory that the brain is just a network of neurons with electric activity, in essence just like a computer, and it could all be simulated in a (future) computer (which mimics neuronal networks instead of linear threads that current CPUs process)- assuming that computer had access to input of stimuli of course (senses of smelling, hearing, seeing etc).

 

 

There aren't just tests with experimental errors that show evidence of randomness, there's a mathematical equation, theoretical, without error. It's called Bell's Theorem, which basically says that unless information can travel faster than speed of light (contradicts general relativity), no hidden variable is responsible for the randomness in quantum mechanics.

As for CPUs, of course you're talking about current CPUs! You yourself said that you observed and compared a computer to a human brain, and deducted that since the computer can't have feelings, our soul is independant from our physical self. Unless you had access to a CPU from future, my point stands. 



           

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ultima said:
Slimebeast said:
ultima said:

It's fine that you don't want to sit around for evidence that may not appear in you lifetime, but why neglect evidence that is present? There is a proof of randomness, and you claim it to be false in favor of, IMHO, a completely ridiculous theory (that has no evidence for it).

And a computer is very different from a human brain. I don't think it's fair to compare them this way. A CPU has an ALU that makes it lightning fast with mathematical and logical calculations. We don't have that. What makes you think that our brain doesn't have a certain component that's responsible for consciousness, that isn't present in CPUs (which would explain why computer don't have feelings)?

See my post above, about neglecting the evidence. In short I am saying that since I dont believe in the concept of randomness, I obviously assume there's other explanations or hidden factors when the tests from the quantum level appears to show evidence of randomness.

I dont mean current CPUs. I mean the theory that the brain is just a network of neurons with electric activity, in essence just like a computer, and it could all be simulated in a (future) computer (which mimics neuronal networks instead of linear threads that current CPUs process)- assuming that computer had access to input of stimuli of course (senses of smelling, hearing, seeing etc).

 

 

There aren't just tests with experimental errors that show evidence of randomness, there's a mathematical equation, theoretical, without error. It's called Bell's Theorem, which basically says that unless information can travel faster than speed of light (contradicts general relativity), no hidden variable is responsible for the randomness in quantum mechanics.

As for CPUs, of course you're talking about current CPUs! You yourself said that you observed and compared a computer to a human brain, and deducted that since the computer can't have feelings, our soul is independant from our physical self. Unless you had access to a CPU from future, my point stands. 

There are alternative interpretations of quantum mechanics, new variants of Bohm's interpretation. If everyone was to accept the standard interpretation like you advocate, science and the search for truth would not go forward.

About comps, are you putting words in my mouth? That's just silly. Why would I restrict myself to talking about current primitive CPUs when no one even has claimed that current computers have consiousness?



Final-Fan said:
Slimebeast said:
Final-Fan said:
Final-Fan said:
Well, as long as you're saying "IMO" and not claiming that you're definitely right. Or, I suppose, if you claim you're definitely right but admit that your certainty is faith-based.

I completely understand that lacking proof you want to go with your gut (although I myself try not to rule something out on a gut feeling) but you must admit that it doesn't constitute evidence supporting that conclusion.
And ultima has a point; it isn't that there isn't evidence for randomness, it's that you believe there is some other factor for which there is no evidence at all that invalidates that evidence.

So? Many scientists and philosofers do this all the time. They have dedicated their careers to it, do it as their full time jobs, get public funding for it and move science and knowledge forward by proposing alternate explanations, theories and stuff. It's perfectly valid in my opinion.

Plus I wanna lift up one thing. It's the essence of randomness. I'm not an expert on this, I havent read much such material but my gut feeling tells me that not just Einstein but many modern scientists feel the same about randomness. That it's essence is such that randomness (and probabilism) is nonsense when explaining things. I argue that it's just a descritptional term. I have a hard time explaining it myself, what I exactly mean.

I think it bodes down to arguments about logic and reality, and wheather everything has a cause, and weather randomness is a possible 'cause' or not.

Okay, no.  Scientists do not say they are right about something with no evidence at all to support them. 

They may have an idea, and go out and test it, and with that evidence they may say "aha, this matches my idea" (although they should be doing their best with these tests to disprove the idea) -- but none of that is what you are doing, except the "have an idea" part. 

If you are saying that you are philosophically opposed to the existence of randomness, I think that's likely a good description of your position, but I think your philosophical objections are meaningless to science.  It's worse than apples and oranges, because at least they're both fruit

Einstein did hate randomness, but he didn't just say "well I'm uncomfortable with that concept so I'm gonna dream up hypothetical reasons it might not be so".  He tried to work out the math to nail down whether or not it was true. 

You are restricting thought and ideas with your argumentation just like ultima does.

Yes, Einstein didn't just complain, he also tried to lay down the math to support it, but why did Einstein, Bohms and many current day physicists feel randomness is nonsense in the first place?

 



Slimebeast said:
Final-Fan said:
Slimebeast said:
So? Many scientists and philosofers do this all the time. They have dedicated their careers to it, do it as their full time jobs, get public funding for it and move science and knowledge forward by proposing alternate explanations, theories and stuff. It's perfectly valid in my opinion.

Plus I wanna lift up one thing. It's the essence of randomness. I'm not an expert on this, I havent read much such material but my gut feeling tells me that not just Einstein but many modern scientists feel the same about randomness. That it's essence is such that randomness (and probabilism) is nonsense when explaining things. I argue that it's just a descritptional term. I have a hard time explaining it myself, what I exactly mean.

I think it bodes down to arguments about logic and reality, and wheather everything has a cause, and weather randomness is a possible 'cause' or not.
Okay, no.  Scientists do not say they are right about something with no evidence at all to support them. 

They may have an idea, and go out and test it, and with that evidence they may say "aha, this matches my idea" (although they should be doing their best with these tests to disprove the idea) -- but none of that is what you are doing, except the "have an idea" part. 

If you are saying that you are philosophically opposed to the existence of randomness, I think that's likely a good description of your position, but I think your philosophical objections are meaningless to science.  It's worse than apples and oranges, because at least they're both fruit

Einstein did hate randomness, but he didn't just say "well I'm uncomfortable with that concept so I'm gonna dream up hypothetical reasons it might not be so".  He tried to work out the math to nail down whether or not it was true.
You are restricting thought and ideas with your argumentation just like ultima does.

Yes, Einstein didn't just complain, he also tried to lay down the math to support it, but why did Einstein, Bohms and many current day physicists feel randomness is nonsense in the first place

Restricting thought?  When you claimed that "scientists do this all the time", all I had to do is refer back to what science is, and what the scientific method is, to know that what scientists do is different.  If all you do is dream up hypothetical ideas and believe in them without evidence and especially without looking for evidence, you're not being a scientist. 

Quantum mechanics is very counter-intuitive.  "Common sense" will often lead you to a wrong conclusion.  Many people have problems with QM for that reason and I think that Einstein was uncomfortable with that aspect of QM for a reason along those lines.  It made him uncomfortable ... but he was rational about it. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Slimebeast said:
ultima said:
Slimebeast said:
ultima said:

It's fine that you don't want to sit around for evidence that may not appear in you lifetime, but why neglect evidence that is present? There is a proof of randomness, and you claim it to be false in favor of, IMHO, a completely ridiculous theory (that has no evidence for it).

And a computer is very different from a human brain. I don't think it's fair to compare them this way. A CPU has an ALU that makes it lightning fast with mathematical and logical calculations. We don't have that. What makes you think that our brain doesn't have a certain component that's responsible for consciousness, that isn't present in CPUs (which would explain why computer don't have feelings)?

See my post above, about neglecting the evidence. In short I am saying that since I dont believe in the concept of randomness, I obviously assume there's other explanations or hidden factors when the tests from the quantum level appears to show evidence of randomness.

I dont mean current CPUs. I mean the theory that the brain is just a network of neurons with electric activity, in essence just like a computer, and it could all be simulated in a (future) computer (which mimics neuronal networks instead of linear threads that current CPUs process)- assuming that computer had access to input of stimuli of course (senses of smelling, hearing, seeing etc).

 

 

There aren't just tests with experimental errors that show evidence of randomness, there's a mathematical equation, theoretical, without error. It's called Bell's Theorem, which basically says that unless information can travel faster than speed of light (contradicts general relativity), no hidden variable is responsible for the randomness in quantum mechanics.

As for CPUs, of course you're talking about current CPUs! You yourself said that you observed and compared a computer to a human brain, and deducted that since the computer can't have feelings, our soul is independant from our physical self. Unless you had access to a CPU from future, my point stands. 

There are alternative interpretations of quantum mechanics, new variants of Bohm's interpretation. If everyone was to accept the standard interpretation like you advocate, science and the search for truth would not go forward.

About comps, are you putting words in my mouth? That's just silly. Why would I restrict myself to talking about current primitive CPUs when no one even has claimed that current computers have consiousness?

But the only local way around randomness in quantum mechanics based on Bell's theorem is that information can travel faster than speed of light. This contradicts Einstein's relativity.

Using your method (not accepting principles, searching for alternatives), I could easily claim that speed of light isn't the limit. After all, it has never been proven (to my knowledge). Wouldn't this render relativity useless? Why don't we go back to Newtonian view of gravity? Science isn't exactly flawless (like pure math is) so there will always be ground to question a theory, no matter how advanced a theory is. By this method, search for truth might go forward, but it would be following a circular path.

And I'm not putting words in your mouth. You said you came to conclusion that computers can't get a human mind, therefore there must be something that is independant from the brain that is responsible for consciousness. "Come to conclusion" implies that you observed, and you can't observe something from future. Therefore, I concluded that you were talking about current CPUs. This is the post I'm referring to:

If I come to the conclusion that a comp can't get a human mind, I deduct from that conclusion that the human mind must have something that is independent from the electrical activity in the neural network.


           

After taking LSD this thread doesn't suck. Cool.