angrypoolman said: highwaystar101 said: WessleWoggle said: Vestigial organs? Vestigial organs tell me evolution is true or the planning for life on earth was fucked. I would like to second this. If life was created then why would we have useless organs that are functional in other species that are closely related to us? The whale is a great example of vestigial organs in evolution. are you talking about the whale's supposed 'feet'? correct me if im wrong, but as far as i know, those bones connect to some very important muscles that has to do with getting baby whales. also, i think that you are going to need a little bit more evidence than those little bones to conclude that whales were once land dwelling creatures. do you know of anything else that confirms this notion?

It's not just the feet, almost everything about the whale points to it once being a land mammal. It has a lot of useless organs that seem to be relics of times that it existed on dry land. In fact, studies show that genetically the Whale has far more in common with Hippos than any fish. If the whale had been created then why would this be the case? Why would a creator make a whale so similar to a land mammal if it was supposed to live in the sea?

highwaystar101 said: angrypoolman said: highwaystar101 said: WessleWoggle said: Vestigial organs? Vestigial organs tell me evolution is true or the planning for life on earth was fucked. I would like to second this. If life was created then why would we have useless organs that are functional in other species that are closely related to us? The whale is a great example of vestigial organs in evolution. are you talking about the whale's supposed 'feet'? correct me if im wrong, but as far as i know, those bones connect to some very important muscles that has to do with getting baby whales. also, i think that you are going to need a little bit more evidence than those little bones to conclude that whales were once land dwelling creatures. do you know of anything else that confirms this notion? It's not just the feet, almost everything about the whale points to it once being a land mammal. It has a lot of useless organs that seem to be relics of times that it existed on dry land. In fact, studies show that genetically the Whale has far more in common with Hippos than any fish. If the whale had been created then why would this be the case? Why would a creator make a whale so similar to a land mammal if it was supposed to live in the sea?

Cause it would be fun.

You know I'm just playing Devil's advocate here... but if I was god i'd create all sorts of crazy animals.

Fish that float through the air and are carnivores, Lions that are just lions but can breath underwater, Space Jellyfish.... another race of humans exactly identical except they've got an extra toe.

Kasz216 said: highwaystar101 said: angrypoolman said: highwaystar101 said: WessleWoggle said: Vestigial organs? Vestigial organs tell me evolution is true or the planning for life on earth was fucked. I would like to second this. If life was created then why would we have useless organs that are functional in other species that are closely related to us? The whale is a great example of vestigial organs in evolution. are you talking about the whale's supposed 'feet'? correct me if im wrong, but as far as i know, those bones connect to some very important muscles that has to do with getting baby whales. also, i think that you are going to need a little bit more evidence than those little bones to conclude that whales were once land dwelling creatures. do you know of anything else that confirms this notion? It's not just the feet, almost everything about the whale points to it once being a land mammal. It has a lot of useless organs that seem to be relics of times that it existed on dry land. In fact, studies show that genetically the Whale has far more in common with Hippos than any fish. If the whale had been created then why would this be the case? Why would a creator make a whale so similar to a land mammal if it was supposed to live in the sea? Cause it would be fun. You know I'm just playing Devil's advocate here... but if I was god i'd create all sorts of crazy animals. Fish that float through the air and are carnivores, Lions that are just lions but can breath underwater, Space Jellyfish....

Or you could just play Spore :P

Scoobes said: Kasz216 said: highwaystar101 said: angrypoolman said: highwaystar101 said: WessleWoggle said: Vestigial organs? Vestigial organs tell me evolution is true or the planning for life on earth was fucked. I would like to second this. If life was created then why would we have useless organs that are functional in other species that are closely related to us? The whale is a great example of vestigial organs in evolution. are you talking about the whale's supposed 'feet'? correct me if im wrong, but as far as i know, those bones connect to some very important muscles that has to do with getting baby whales. also, i think that you are going to need a little bit more evidence than those little bones to conclude that whales were once land dwelling creatures. do you know of anything else that confirms this notion? It's not just the feet, almost everything about the whale points to it once being a land mammal. It has a lot of useless organs that seem to be relics of times that it existed on dry land. In fact, studies show that genetically the Whale has far more in common with Hippos than any fish. If the whale had been created then why would this be the case? Why would a creator make a whale so similar to a land mammal if it was supposed to live in the sea? Cause it would be fun. You know I'm just playing Devil's advocate here... but if I was god i'd create all sorts of crazy animals. Fish that float through the air and are carnivores, Lions that are just lions but can breath underwater, Space Jellyfish.... Or you could just play Spore :P

I do infact.

highwaystar101 said: Why would a creator make a whale so similar to a land mammal if it was supposed to live in the sea?

As far as I know, the whale hasn't problems with living in the sea despite being so similar to land mammals...

Something occurs to me about creationists, especially young earth creationists. It seems to be a constant case of the words "what if".

What if the speed of light is slowing down?
What if the radiometric dating is wrong?
What if the genetics is proven to be wrong?
What if the decay of atoms has slowed down?
What if the Earth lost water somehow?
What if the fossils are not accurate?
What if we discover the Earth is the only planet and nothing else exists?
What if we found out that the sun doesn't supply the earth with heat?
(All of these I have read at some point, as ridiculous as they may sound)

What if, what if, what if, what if...

It seems to me that if you constantly have to say 'what if' to reach a predetermined answer, then you should ask yourself some serious questions about what you have been told.

That's pretty much what I did after hearing all about miracles, giant floods and supernaturally induced plagues when I was a kid and thinking why don't they happen so frequently now then?... So did Ricky Gervais who explained it quite elegantly once.

Baroque_Dude said: highwaystar101 said: Why would a creator make a whale so similar to a land mammal if it was supposed to live in the sea? As far as I know, the whale hasn't problems with living in the sea despite being so similar to land mammals...

So why would a creator make it like a mammal and not a fish, it seems to me fish are far more adapted to the sea. They don't have to go up for air all the time. So why would you start off with a fish and say "No that design is too perfect, let's go back and make it worse and give it a load of organs it doesn't need while we're at it."

highwaystar101 said: Baroque_Dude said: highwaystar101 said: Why would a creator make a whale so similar to a land mammal if it was supposed to live in the sea? As far as I know, the whale hasn't problems with living in the sea despite being so similar to land mammals... So why would a creator make it like a mammal and not a fish, it seems to me fish are far more adapted to the sea. They don't have to go up for air all the time. So why would you start off with a fish and say "No that design is too perfect, let's go back and make it worse and give it a load of organs it doesn't need while we're at it."

I understand your point but still the whale hasn't problems.

Easiest way to win evolution argument:

Horse + Donkey = Mule (which is sterile so donkeys and horses will continue to evolve apart from each other until interspecies breeding is impossible).

Baroque_Dude said: highwaystar101 said: Baroque_Dude said: highwaystar101 said: Why would a creator make a whale so similar to a land mammal if it was supposed to live in the sea? As far as I know, the whale hasn't problems with living in the sea despite being so similar to land mammals... So why would a creator make it like a mammal and not a fish, it seems to me fish are far more adapted to the sea. They don't have to go up for air all the time. So why would you start off with a fish and say "No that design is too perfect, let's go back and make it worse and give it a load of organs it doesn't need while we're at it." I understand your point but still the whale hasn't problems.

It does have problems, the whale is really just a transitional creature. If it was 'created' to live in the sea why would the creator give it lungs when gills would do the job just as well? The lungs are just a constant problem, it has to keep resurfacing, fish don't have to surface.

The cetacean branch of evolution (Dolphins, Whales, porpoises, etc...) all have the same attributes that support that cetacean creatures once lived on land. Genetically they bare far more resemblance to land mammals than they do fish. the Cetacean creatures all fall under the Cetartiodactyla order, which is a a group of animals that includes not just whales, dolphins and porpoises but also land mammals such as hippopotamuses. We've even found staged cetacean fossils in Pakistan that show the transition from land mammals to sea mammals.

Just out of interest the attributes that these animals share are defined as...

1. Their need to breathe air from the surface;

2. The bones of their fins, which resemble the jointed hands of land mammals; and

3. The vertical movement of their spines, characteristic more of a running mammal than of the horizontal movement of fish.