By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Nintendo - Email: Did people even notice Nintendo’s UGC plans? (Malstrom)

Malstrom expains why nintendo didn't believe they are in the content business to say that they've been getting away with reusing the same content over and over again with the help of adding new contexts. I agree with him and I believe it explains perfectly why people are getting on Nintendo about creating "new IP's" and such.

It gives me hope in knowing they can't rely on just changing the context forever.

http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2009/09/23/email-did-people-even-notice-nintendos-ugc-plans/

Hi Sean,

Your theory seems to be that Nintendo alienated all those who saw potential in the Wii with their UGC focus but when I brought that up in a discussion with some gamers they all just went “what UGC focus?”. I doubt many people even noticed it, they see Wii Music as a failed game and that’s it (don’t even see it as UGC, perhaps because the songs in it are predefined and those are content, just content people weren’t interested in), games like Flipnote and Minis March Again are just minor blips, not evidence of any strategy to them. All these people saw was a massive game drought, an absense of new games, not a change in company focus. I think Nintendo doesn’t have as bad of an image as you describe, they aren’t seen as opposing content, just lazy and in need of more game production. That can be overcome with more games, it’s not going to stick with them. They aborted the UGC strategy fast enough that few even noticed.

Asking customers for their opinions is a fruitless endeavor. Customers do not know what they want. You cannot say, “What surprises you?” or “What satisfies you?” If Henry Ford asked customers what they wanted, they would have replied: “Faster horses.”

All the analysis of the “Game Industry” is going the wrong direction. They analyze ’sales’ and make cute little charts and squeal about percentages. But none of this is useful. Customer behavior is what needs to be analyzed. Many people think they are doing this by pigeon holing customers into different containers with different labels. “Casuals” over there. “Hardcore” over here. “Old people” there. “Kiddies” here. This is what many professional marketers have been trained to do and is a big cause as to why the “Game Industry” is becoming more and more dangerous to gaming.

When making a game, you just can’t say “we’ll just make it fun”. You have to analyze the player and see everything through their eyes. This is no easy task. And it is the same with any entertainment medium.

Of course they don’t see “User Generated Content”. They likely also don’t see “Blue Ocean Strategy” or disruption (unless they read it here. No journalist talked of Nintendo’s Wii strategy in that manner, that is for sure!).

From their point of view, they do not see ‘new’ games or see Nintendo making crappy games (like Wii Music). Their perspective is right for their viewpoint.

When ‘hardcore’ complained about the ‘casual games’, they were seeing things from their perspective. From their perspective, those games do seem ‘casual’ and ‘for stupid gamers’. In the mid 80s, Super Mario Brothers seemed ‘casual’ and ’stupid’ to many computer gamers.

This is point of view.

From my point of view, all games coming out are crappy. Of course, this is true in my point of view. But my point of view isn’t reality. A point of view isn’t fruitful either.

User Generated Content was not just one or two games, it was the new Nintendo philosophy. What was Nintendo’s point of view on it? We don’t know entirely, but we can imagine. From their interviews, Iwata and Miyamoto probably thought ‘User Generated Content’ was the ‘hot new thing’ because it would keep creating ’surprises’. Reggie-Fils Aime and the NOA executives probably said something like, “User generated content? By golly! That sounds disruptive! Let’s do it!”

Not just one game was coming out with User Generated Content. An entire FLEET of Nintendo software was being made. I bet there are many games that were in production that we haven’t heard about that were going to be made with ‘user generated content’.

Since gamers can detect only the content of games, games with no content will appear to them as ‘crappy games’ and mediocre all the way around. Wii Music is not a bad game in that no effort was made in it. It was ‘bad’ in that it failed to analyze how customers consume games. I recall Iwata remarking something like, “We need to educate the consumer on how to play Wii Music.” Or maybe the customer is right, and the game is wrong?

When the DS and Wii did their thing, the perspective gamers had was “casual games” and “non-games”. The reality that was going on was Blue Ocean Strategy. So while today, gameres might say that Nintendo is not making any new games or that the games Nintendo is making (like Wii Music) suck, their point of view is right but this is not the source of the issue. The source of the issue is Nintendo going User Generated Content. It is that cause which is creating games that have no content (and from the gamer’s eyes, as extremely mediocre games since content is the primary game experience).

I remember earlier in 2006 and 2007, when I began writing about Nintendo, that I recall it odd that Nintendo and other game companies referred to games and content as one of the same. Consumers do not look at it that way. Some games had better content than other games. At one point, Iwata refferred to content in games as the ‘levels’ and art, sound, etc. assets. This isn’t how content is either.

How consumers experience games will be the great learning place for game developers. There is nothing written on the subject. Consumers will have difficulty explaining it. Think of something like music. Why is some music popular and others not? No one truly knows. It is extremely difficult to decipher. But, decades from now, we will know more than we do today. Perhaps a clear pattern can be made.

It pleases me to be one of the first people writing about games to say that gameplay is not the primary experience. Gameplay only provides the context. The content, itself, is what is consumed. So something like Super Mario Brothers was meteoric new content. No one had seen the Mushroom Kingdom before! Something like Super Mario Brothers 3 was expansion on that new content (as well as new gameplay such as flying that allowed us to experience that content in new ways). Something like Super Mario Kart is the old content (Mushroom Kingdom) but in a completely new context (racing). The RPG Marios are similar: same content but in a new context. Nintendo has been able to keep their franchises alive for so long by constantly applying new contexts to them.

Fortunately, the future is context driven. I could write a book about the fall of the Roman Empire. No one would care. No matter if the book is stuffed with facts and factoids, no one would care. But if I wrote a book that gave a new context to the fall of the Roman Empire, something that changes how people view things, that would sell.

Most content on the Internet is context driven. People are not interested so much in facts and information as they are in the context they are provided. For example, this is why top ten lists are so popular. They are a context of how to look at things.

So this is why I can see why Nintendo thought games were gameplay driven. Gameplay is very important. It is the context in how consumers experience the content.

But that doesn’t change the fact that there has to be some sort of content there.

Journalism is so despised in the Information Age, I believe, because their content is being rejected. If you want to hear journalists shriek like harpies, tell them that they are going out of business because of their content being rejected by consumers. They will say it is because their content is being stolen, bad business models, or the Internet in general. So no matter where their content goes, to the Internet or elseware, and no matter what business model it has, it still fails. They cannot believe their content is being rejected, so we are witnessing that ‘industry’ be in total denial as they dissolve.

I don’t think the crisis in gaming is contained to no new gameplay. I also think it is no new content. No fresh ideas. (Are you tired of sequels and remakes? I am.)

To use a book analogy, I always see gameplay to the writing style and content as to the story/substance of the book. Good gameplay, like good writing, will have the person play anything. But the trully big phenomena is that there is something in the content that has set a fire inside the consumer’s mind. It is something that causes them to get other people to read it (word of mouth is very important for book writers as you can imagine).

With something like Wii Sports Tennis, the content is obviously Tennis. The context is using it with a motion controller which made video game tennis very fun and easier to experience. Zelda Wii will, likely, be the content of Zelda that we know and are familiar with in the new context of motion controls (swinging the controller to swing the sword, etc.).

The complaint of Nintendo relying on old franchises of Mario, Zelda, and Metroid is substantive. Nintendo has been lucky that the 8-bit, 16-bit, 3-D, and now motion controls keep allowing new contexts to this old content. But Nintendo can’t rely on it forever. Older game series making new appearances, like Punch-Out, is nice. But the biggest criticism I’ve seen of games like Punch-Out is no new boxers (except one who isn’t too well liked). It is a criticism of no new content, or, rather, reshuffling old content.

Miyamoto says that Wii Sports and the Miis are new IPs. Technically, he is correct. But in the perspective of new content, he is wrong. People wonder if Nintendo even has the capability to create new content that can excite the world anymore. One investor even asked Iwata something like this (and Iwata answered back in giving sales numbers, hahaha).

WiiWare was to experiment new gameplay. But why not new content? Consumers have shown their willingness to buy old gameplay if it has new content (as the constant remakes are all about). A new 2d platformer would go very well even without new gameplay.

Think back when the NES exploded on the scene. Much of the excitement was due to the content. The games were much better content than anything else anyone had ever seen. They were even better than many computer games!

Super Mario Brothers
Zelda 2
Contra
Bubble Bobble
Adventure Island
Ducktales
Chip and Dale: Rescue Rangers
Blaster Master
Metroid
Kid Icarus
Megaman
Kirby

…and many more.

All these games were platformers of a sort. All had the same gameplay yet all had very different content. The gameplay wasn’t that much different from Pitfall anyway. Most lovingly, they were highly textured content.

I remember standing in front of store aisles during the 8-bit generation and being overwhelmed at what treasures were before me. On the NES shelves, you would see all these new propositions of content. Since the NES was coming from Japan, there were no sequels.

I want a marketer to explain to me how all these original IPs could succeed. History defies the “Game Industry”.

Now, there were sequels of course. But the original game on the NES was not a sequel unless it came from the comptuer (such as Ulitma III).

Starting with the 16-bit Era, it was somewhat disapointing that so many games were reshuffling their content. However, there was enough new blood back then.

Now, there is no new blood. Every game feels like a sequel or a remake. And games that are ‘new’ are often very quirky and totally bizarre.

How I, and many people, expected Nintendo to approach the Wii was to put out Wii versions of their popular games: 3d Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Mario Kart, and so on. Then, Nintendo would also return to some old series: Punch-Out, Kid Icarus, Mach Rider, and who knows what else. And, also, Nintendo would present some brand new content propositions. It would be a three legged stool of the currently popular, the old, and the brand new. Lately, Nintendo has brought over what is currently popular for them at the moment. But to everyone’s surprise, Nintendo is making sequels to those games (Metroid: Other M, Galaxy 2). The annoyance is that this is taking the place of return classics (instead of more Mario and Metroid, why not a new Starfox or another series?). And it is also taking the place of brand new series. Nintendo is putting too much weight on one leg.

The reason why I keep bringing up ‘User Generated Content’ and Nintendo is, even though Nintendo has said they are moving on, I’m trying to wave a flag pointing out that they are in the content business. Only a company who does not believe it is the content business could even consider ‘User Generated Content’. User Generated Content is giving consumers, who are rank amateurs, the most important job of video game software.

User-Generated Programming (which HAS been done in game consoles) would even be preferrable to ‘User Generated Content’. Consumers do not consume the programming, but they do consume the content.

If a company like Nintendo didn’t think they were in the content business, you know every other game company doesn’t believe they are in the content business either. Perhaps this would explain why games feel so stale, why there seems to be no new ideas out there. Perhaps this is why games keep getting sold to used games market because the consumer has seen that content before and considers it cliché.

Perhaps this is why the game market is shrinking.



Around the Network

If Henry Ford asked customers what they wanted, they would have replied: “Faster horses.”

That line was so clever... that completely resumes what disruption is about



Nintendo is the best videogames company ever!

I still fail to see all these user generated content games that Malstrom is talking about. I would also like to see his justification of this sentence.

I bet there are many games that were in production that we haven’t heard about that were going to be made with ‘user generated content’.



Switch Code: SW-7377-9189-3397 -- Nintendo Network ID: theRepublic -- Steam ID: theRepublic

Now Playing
Switch - Super Mario Maker 2 (2019)
3DS - Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney (Trilogy) (2005/2014)
Mobile - Yugioh Duel Links (2017)
Mobile - Super Mario Run (2017)
PC - Borderlands 2 (2012)
PC - Deep Rock Galactic (2020)

theRepublic said:
I still fail to see all these user generated content games that Malstrom is talking about. I would also like to see his justification of this sentence.
I bet there are many games that were in production that we haven’t heard about that were going to be made with ‘user generated content’.

That's the fun of it. We don't know what we don't know. Maybe a retreat from UGC projects was what led to the many teams who we haven't heard from in years and still don't know what they're working on.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

theRepublic said:
I still fail to see all these user generated content games that Malstrom is talking about. I would also like to see his justification of this sentence.
I bet there are many games that were in production that we haven’t heard about that were going to be made with ‘user generated content’.

People thought 2009 was suppose to have a lot of games from Nintendo after the weak 2008 holiday. However, there are only four games coming from Nintendo this year: WSR, Wii Fit Plus, NSMB Wii and LoZ: Spirit Tracks. We got Rhythm Heaven earlier in the year, but that was in Japan a while before. The other few titles were from 2nd parties, but even then, they were few and far between. The thinking is Nintendo canned a lot of projects that were suppose to come out. There may have been big Wii projects that Nintendo thought were going to sell systems. Since Wii Music, all of the UGC games (save Mario vs Donkey Kong: Minis March Again). Most of the games that are coming out were out in Japan prior. Nintendo talked a lot about UGC, especially to investors. All of the games we are seeing now are those projects that were not UGC games.



Around the Network

So wait... He continually says Nintendo's problem is that they went down a user generated content path. And when pressed to give an example other than the one single game which does so, he says they probably made a lot that they didn't put out... take his word for it...

So in other words... He has no response to people that said "what games are you talking about"



I'm a mod, come to me if there's mod'n to do. 

Chrizum is the best thing to happen to the internet, Period.

Serves me right for challenging his sales predictions!

Bet with dsisister44: Red Steel 2 will sell 1 million within it's first 365 days of sales.

stof said:
So wait... He continually says Nintendo's problem is that they went down a user generated content path. And when pressed to give an example other than the one single game which does so, he says they probably made a lot that they didn't put out... take his word for it...

So in other words... He has no response to people that said "what games are you talking about"

Of the games that we know, Wii Music, Warioware: DIY, Flipnote Studios (although I'm sure you could argue this one) and Mario vs Donkey Kong: Minis March again. Of all of those, only the latter was unveiled after Wii Music. Other evidence

  • Nintendo mentioned professional vs amature content at E3 09
  • Nintendo has mentioned this topic before to investors
  • Iwata and Miyamoto were exicted about it during Flipnote Studio's Iwata Ask
  • There has beena void of games, suggesting that Nintendo canned/delayed a lot of projects.


Smashchu2 said:
theRepublic said:
I still fail to see all these user generated content games that Malstrom is talking about. I would also like to see his justification of this sentence.
I bet there are many games that were in production that we haven’t heard about that were going to be made with ‘user generated content’.

People thought 2009 was suppose to have a lot of games from Nintendo after the weak 2008 holiday. However, there are only four games coming from Nintendo this year: WSR, Wii Fit Plus, NSMB Wii and LoZ: Spirit Tracks. We got Rhythm Heaven earlier in the year, but that was in Japan a while before. The other few titles were from 2nd parties, but even then, they were few and far between. The thinking is Nintendo canned a lot of projects that were suppose to come out. There may have been big Wii projects that Nintendo thought were going to sell systems. Since Wii Music, all of the UGC games (save Mario vs Donkey Kong: Minis March Again). Most of the games that are coming out were out in Japan prior. Nintendo talked a lot about UGC, especially to investors. All of the games we are seeing now are those projects that were not UGC games.

Four games?  Time to dig up one of my old posts.

Nintendo published titles in America, separated by year:

  1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th Total
NES 18 8 9 9 7 12 1 1 3 3 71 (44)
SNES 5 8 6 11 6 5 2       43 (30)
N64 6 8 11 10 14 4         53 (35)
GC 4 8 11 12 11 4         50 (35)
Wii (Retail)
(WiiWare)
3
0
13
0

8
7

7(+2)
5
            31 (33)
12

The numbers in parathesis in the Total column are the total number of games after the fourth calender year.  This allows an easier comparison to the Wii.

Games are separated by calender year, mostly because it was just a lot easier to do it that way.  The fourth year for the Wii is 2009, and unreleased games Wii Fit Plus and NSMB Wii are represented as (+2).  WiiWare for the fourth year could also grow.

I did this mostly for my own benefit, but figured this would be interesting enough to other people.  I just wanted to see how some of the claims in this thread would hold up.  These are all games, because I think the core/casual thing is mostly BS.

Nintendo is pretty much on the same pace they have been on since the SNES.  It is just that the second year of the Wii was overloaded for some reason.

Since you are including DS games, let me look up everything to see how many games they published in 2009 so far.  For America:

Wii: 7 (NSMB and Wii Fit Plus will bring this to 9)

WiiWare: 5

DS: 7

DSiWare: 25 (although a lot of these are pretty silly like the Mario calculator and Mario clock)

In other words, I seriously doubt there are a lot of canned projects.



Switch Code: SW-7377-9189-3397 -- Nintendo Network ID: theRepublic -- Steam ID: theRepublic

Now Playing
Switch - Super Mario Maker 2 (2019)
3DS - Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney (Trilogy) (2005/2014)
Mobile - Yugioh Duel Links (2017)
Mobile - Super Mario Run (2017)
PC - Borderlands 2 (2012)
PC - Deep Rock Galactic (2020)

Smashchu2 said:
stof said:
So wait... He continually says Nintendo's problem is that they went down a user generated content path. And when pressed to give an example other than the one single game which does so, he says they probably made a lot that they didn't put out... take his word for it...

So in other words... He has no response to people that said "what games are you talking about"

Of the games that we know, Wii Music, Warioware: DIY, Flipnote Studios (although I'm sure you could argue this one) and Mario vs Donkey Kong: Minis March again. Of all of those, only the latter was unveiled after Wii Music. Other evidence

  • Nintendo mentioned professional vs amature content at E3 09
  • Nintendo has mentioned this topic before to investors
  • Iwata and Miyamoto were exicted about it during Flipnote Studio's Iwata Ask
  • There has beena void of games, suggesting that Nintendo canned/delayed a lot of projects.


Those are all DS games. I'm refering to Malstroms oft made assertion that the Wii was suffering because people weren't enjoying their direction of user generated content. But he only ever used Wii Music as evidence of that. If his defence is that the Wii was losing steam because people were rejecting Wii Music and hypothetical games that have not and or will not be released isn't really the best of defences is it?



I'm a mod, come to me if there's mod'n to do. 

Chrizum is the best thing to happen to the internet, Period.

Serves me right for challenging his sales predictions!

Bet with dsisister44: Red Steel 2 will sell 1 million within it's first 365 days of sales.

It does seem like a strange assumption, that Nintendo backed down from user generated content without providing any evidence. It seemed like Nintendo was still pretty excited about UGC at E3 this year, at least on the DS. I also have hard time believing a 2.5 million selling game like Wii Music, caused Nintendo to be afraid of how games with user generated content would sell. Also if they were canceled because of Wii Music's sales, but were previously planned to release in 2009 that would mean the games were very far in development. So I just don't think Nintendo was ever that focused on UGC, but think that may be interested in it for the future.