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Forums - General - The fight over Darwin - Teaching evolution in schools

appolose on 20 September 2009
ManusJustus said:
appolose said:
ManusJustus said:
appolose said:

Picking any one belief about reality is just as baseless as picking another; there is no good reason why one might be true over another.

There is a good reason, because one 'assumption' has better results than the other.

I believe that if I unplug my computer I will not be able to get on the internet.  Another belief I could have is that if I unplug my computer I will be able to get on the internet.

Obviously, the belief that my computer needs to be plugged in is the better belief.  Otherwise, I'm sitting here staring at a blank computer screen.  Now, as you say, my computer may or may not exist, but regardless if it exists or not, the only way I am going to be on it is if I plug it in.

"Now, as you say, my computer may or may not exist, but regardless if it exists or not, the only way I am going to be on it is if I plug it in".  This is contradictory.  If it doesn't exist, you won't be able to get on it.

And you seem to think that you can observe whether or not you can actually get on a computer.  How is that?

Let me rephrase it.

My computer may or may not exist, but regardless if it exists or not, the only way that I am going to think that I am on my computer is if it is plugged in.

To prove my point, if you are going to reply to this post your computer is going to be plugged in.  In fact, if it doesnt matter, then why is your computer plugged in right now as you read this?

For your first statement, the only reason you think that is because you assume it.  And if you unplug it, you would have to assume that it is actually off.  Same for the second statement.



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

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ManusJustus on 20 September 2009
appolose said:
ManusJustus said:

My computer may or may not exist, but regardless if it exists or not, the only way that I am going to think that I am on my computer is if it is plugged in.

To prove my point, if you are going to reply to this post your computer is going to be plugged in.  In fact, if it doesnt matter, then why is your computer plugged in right now as you read this?

For your first statement, the only reason you think that is because you assume it.  And if you unplug it, you would have to assume that it is actually off.  Same for the second statement.

Why was your computer plugged in when you replied to my post?



Rath on 20 September 2009

Or he had a laptop running on battery and wireless =D

Also what science can't explain science won't explain, its not breaking logic its just leaving a mystery unsolved. It will never accept on non-falsifiable hypothesis because that violates the scientific method.



Final-Fan on 20 September 2009
Rath said:
Or he had a laptop running on battery and wireless =D

Also what science can't explain science won't explain, its not breaking logic its just leaving a mystery unsolved. It will never accept on non-falsifiable hypothesis because that violates the scientific method.

Just so all of you know:  I believe this is the same as what I was trying to get at with the "process of elimination" thing.  



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Khuutra on 20 September 2009

Yeah, we're much more likely to realize we don't have the ability to perceive the cause for something than we are to reach the conclusion that the cause is supernatural.

"Jim Bob, my house collapsed into a miniature black hole and my wife was charred to bones by Hawking radiation."

"Holy Hell! How does that even happen?"

"I don't know. No one knows. There may never be an explanation!"

"Maybe God did it"

"Maybe shut up"



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Final-Fan on 20 September 2009
appolose said:
Rath said:
appolose said:
Rath said:
 

The math did work (and has been done) so can you come up with a situation that would actually meet the criteria I stated earlier?

I don't think there are any which don't violate the laws of logic.

Whether or not it did or does is not the issue.  "If it didn't" is what I'm saying (you did say it didn't have to be real observation)

If the math didn't work then we would have to change the current model of the laws of physics until the maths did work, or if there actually was a supernatural cause then science would simply leave it un-explained forever. There simply isn't a way for science to accept the supernatural that doesn't involve breaking logic.

I mean if the math didn't work for supporting the idea that the laws of physics did not apply at the beginning of the universe, not that math doesn't work at all.

And you can't leave something unexplained (by unexplained, I assume you're talking about contradictory).  Either science is wrong or there is a supernatural cause; leaving it unexplained would be breaking logic.

Is it true that they haven't completely reconciled quantum mechanics and "normal" mechanics?  If so, does that break logic?  

On the other hand, look at this:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox

Now this seemingly was a contradiction of the type you propose, right?  Two scientific views that appeared to conflict and yet were each upheld by experiments.  Right?  But science eventually (apparently) came up with a solution that didn't involve God.  

(I loved science classes but I never majored in any of this crap by a long shot so anyone can feel free to bitch slap me with some facts.) 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan on 20 September 2009

And for that matter, didn't a lot of stuff in the kind of things Einstein was involved in challenge some "basic assumptions of science"? I mean, you become smaller and heavier if you go faster? WTF?

And right now, scientists are at a loss to explain why the universe is expanding as fast as it is, considering our current knowledge of gravity, and isn't gravity mostly pretty basic stuff as science goes?



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Rath on 20 September 2009

Nah gravity is the least understood of the four forces. It's a large part of the reason they are hoping for the Higg's Boson.

Also quantum and classical don't gel well together at all, especially not near the speed of light - relativity screws it up big time.



appolose on 21 September 2009
Rath said:
Or he had a laptop running on battery and wireless =D

Also what science can't explain science won't explain, its not breaking logic its just leaving a mystery unsolved. It will never accept on non-falsifiable hypothesis because that violates the scientific method.

It is breaking logic; the basic tenant of science is :"If it is observed enough, it is assumed true".  Thus, in the event of two contradictory well-established observations, you would have a contradiction (they're both assumed to be true, as they've both been observed enough).  You can't leave it unexplained.  So, you are left with two choices; either forsake the basic tenant, or impose the only logical answer (supernatural).



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
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appolose on 21 September 2009
ManusJustus said:
appolose said:
ManusJustus said:

My computer may or may not exist, but regardless if it exists or not, the only way that I am going to think that I am on my computer is if it is plugged in.

To prove my point, if you are going to reply to this post your computer is going to be plugged in.  In fact, if it doesnt matter, then why is your computer plugged in right now as you read this?

For your first statement, the only reason you think that is because you assume it.  And if you unplug it, you would have to assume that it is actually off.  Same for the second statement.

Why was your computer plugged in when you replied to my post?

Was it?  How could you or I prove it was?



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz