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Forums - General - The fight over Darwin - Teaching evolution in schools

The_vagabond7 said:
Why should creationism be taught in science class again? Should we teach about the Time Cube too? Astrology? Alchemy? Witchcraft? Why only creationism in science class?

Science class is to teach about the scientific method, the prevailing scientific theories, and the facts and evidence used to deduce the theories. Teaching a 15 year old about the time cube (go wiki it if you're unfamiliar with the term) in the name of debate and critical thinking is grossly irresponsible, because you inevitably will have a number of 8th graders going through life believing in the time cube because it was presented as a possible alternative that shouldn't be discounted just because it doesn't fit "Science". If you are going to include something like the time cube or creationism it should only be to show the difference between science and pseudo science as a means of teaching critical thinking, and not as a viable scientific hypothesis.

Creationism can be taught in religious studies, it can be taught in philosophy, but it in no way is scientific, has nothing to do with the scientific method, it is neither provable nor disprovable, and is pseudo-science if it is any kind of science. If you include ID into science then you open the door to every other form of understanding our world be it witchcraft, astrology, spiritism or anything else.

The Time cube theory is a perfectly reasonable explanation

EARTH HAS 4 CORNER
SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY
TIME CUBE
IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION.
4 Corner TIME, CUBES EARTH.
******************
FREE SPEECH in AMERICA is
"BULL SHIT",
EVIL EDUCATORS
block and suppress
www.timecube.com.
You are educated evil,
and I possess the proof.
USA ripe for holocaust.
Man evolves from teen -
in cube metamorphosis
but ignores teenager to worship a male mother,
guised in woman's garb,
churchman called father.
Adult god is adult crime
upon their own children.
More holocaust deserved.
The 12 hour or 1/2 Day clock is an intended EVIL against humanity -
indicting every human on Earth as Dumb, Educated Stupid and Evil -
for imaginary Cubed Earth has 4
Days within simultaneous rotation.
One God would equal a God Dunce
as Humans evolve from Children.
****************************
Americans are dumb, educated ONE
stupid and they worship ONEism Evil.
It is not immoral to kill believers, for the stupid bastards EVOLVE from son
or daughter who precedes them. NOT one damn human adult has ever been
created - for ONLY babies are CREATED - and every adult has within them the LIFE given by children who DIE to give-up their lives to their parent
image - so their mom or Dad can live. Adults are EVIL to deny they evolved from children - and claim their adult EGO image is a god likeness. Such damn evil AMERICANS should have their tongue cut out for the heinous hoax they are perpetrating upon their own children. I know now why the Jews
deserved their holocaust - worshipping their own adult EGO image as a damn god whil ignoring and betraying they very children who sacrifice their LIFE
so their Moms and Dads could Live. There is nothing godly about stupid
and evil adults who betray their own children who gave them Life. I AM
WISER THAN ANY DAMN MAN OR GOD WHO EVER EXISTED. IF THE



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Baroque_Dude said:

....

I didn't say "because people believe both", exactly. I just put the Big Bang in my first post because is another example of a controversial and thorny issue regarding the origin of the world where we live and both evolution and the Big Bang theory are the scientific standard theories about the origin of the world (one) and life (the other), and that's it.

This is the third time that I say that I know that they are different things, but you keep on "attacking?" me with that.

Next issue, please.

....My original post was not even aimed specifically at you. It was aimed at the idea that there are people who equate evolution with the origin of life and the origin of the universe. I can't help it if you replied to a post that wasn't about you.



Baroque_Dude said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:
Evolution has been PROVEN on the genetic scale. We can tell which chromosomes from chimpanzees got stuck together and moved around into what exact order in humans. We predicted it, tested it, and proved it.


Scientists say that the human genoma map is a 34% identical with the mice's map, but I don't feel like a 34% mouse.

I know, I know that the chromosomic issue is far more complex but that was a way of speaking. I mean that, what if chimpanzees are a 95% identical to humans? If we have a 34% percentage with mice and we are soooo different, then I think is more natural to have a greater similarity with more similar animals like chimpanzees are.

I'm not talking about having things in common with chimpanzees.  I'm talking about how chimpanzees have more chromosomes than humans.  The argument against evolution was that as things evolve they can ONLY become more complex by creating more chromosomes, and not lose any pairs of chromosomes.  So it was hypothesized that during that change some of the chromosomes stuck together, so one human chromosome should have 2 centers, like how if 2 eggs get cooked together it will look like 1 big egg with 2 yolks.

They mapped out all our chromosomes and discovered exactly which 2 chimp chromosomes got stuck together, and which one it is in the human, and where it moved to.  These results proved the hypothesis correct, and debunked that particular anti-evolution argument.  Now the only argument left is "Satan went back in time and played with our DNA to trick us into believing that things adapt over time."

I really don't see why the idea that things adapt to their surroundings is so evil.  Everything does it.  When it's one person adapting, we call it common sense, and when it's a species adapting over a long period of time, we call it evolution.



Khuutra said:
Baroque_Dude said:

....

I didn't say "because people believe both", exactly. I just put the Big Bang in my first post because is another example of a controversial and thorny issue regarding the origin of the world where we live and both evolution and the Big Bang theory are the scientific standard theories about the origin of the world (one) and life (the other), and that's it.

This is the third time that I say that I know that they are different things, but you keep on "attacking?" me with that.

Next issue, please.

....My original post was not even aimed specifically at you. It was aimed at the idea that there are people who equate evolution with the origin of life and the origin of the universe. I can't help it if you replied to a post that wasn't about you.

Well, since your post was almost right after mines... but ok.



"I think that I don't think."

- Soli Deo Gloria -

The FUTURE is the FUTURE. Now... B_E_L_I_E_V_E!

The Ghost of RubangB said:
Baroque_Dude said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:
Evolution has been PROVEN on the genetic scale. We can tell which chromosomes from chimpanzees got stuck together and moved around into what exact order in humans. We predicted it, tested it, and proved it.


Scientists say that the human genoma map is a 34% identical with the mice's map, but I don't feel like a 34% mouse.

I know, I know that the chromosomic issue is far more complex but that was a way of speaking. I mean that, what if chimpanzees are a 95% identical to humans? If we have a 34% percentage with mice and we are soooo different, then I think is more natural to have a greater similarity with more similar animals like chimpanzees are.

I'm not talking about having things in common with chimpanzees.  I'm talking about how chimpanzees have more chromosomes than humans.  The argument against evolution was that as things evolve they can ONLY become more complex by creating more chromosomes, and not lose any pairs of chromosomes.  So it was hypothesized that during that change some of the chromosomes stuck together, so one human chromosome should have 2 centers, like how if 2 eggs get cooked together it will look like 1 big egg with 2 yolks.

They mapped out all our chromosomes and discovered exactly which 2 chimp chromosomes got stuck together, and which one it is in the human, and where it moved to.  These results proved the hypothesis correct, and debunked that particular anti-evolution argument.  Now the only argument left is "Satan went back in time and played with our DNA to trick us into believing that things adapt over time."

I really don't see why the idea that things adapt to their surroundings is so evil.  Everything does it.  When it's one person adapting, we call it common sense, and when it's a species adapting over a long period of time, we call it evolution.

I read your explanation, although I think that that doesn't necessarily support evolution and we could go bla and bla and bla and never end, which I don't want.

And, about your last sentences, I believe that organisms adapt (we have very clear and recent examples), but I don't believe that they evolve from one kind into another (yes, I know that some people say that this is contradictory), nor that everything that is on Earth evolved from a single form of life.



"I think that I don't think."

- Soli Deo Gloria -

The FUTURE is the FUTURE. Now... B_E_L_I_E_V_E!

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Baroque_Dude said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:
Baroque_Dude said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:
Evolution has been PROVEN on the genetic scale. We can tell which chromosomes from chimpanzees got stuck together and moved around into what exact order in humans. We predicted it, tested it, and proved it.


Scientists say that the human genoma map is a 34% identical with the mice's map, but I don't feel like a 34% mouse.

I know, I know that the chromosomic issue is far more complex but that was a way of speaking. I mean that, what if chimpanzees are a 95% identical to humans? If we have a 34% percentage with mice and we are soooo different, then I think is more natural to have a greater similarity with more similar animals like chimpanzees are.

I'm not talking about having things in common with chimpanzees.  I'm talking about how chimpanzees have more chromosomes than humans.  The argument against evolution was that as things evolve they can ONLY become more complex by creating more chromosomes, and not lose any pairs of chromosomes.  So it was hypothesized that during that change some of the chromosomes stuck together, so one human chromosome should have 2 centers, like how if 2 eggs get cooked together it will look like 1 big egg with 2 yolks.

They mapped out all our chromosomes and discovered exactly which 2 chimp chromosomes got stuck together, and which one it is in the human, and where it moved to.  These results proved the hypothesis correct, and debunked that particular anti-evolution argument.  Now the only argument left is "Satan went back in time and played with our DNA to trick us into believing that things adapt over time."

I really don't see why the idea that things adapt to their surroundings is so evil.  Everything does it.  When it's one person adapting, we call it common sense, and when it's a species adapting over a long period of time, we call it evolution.

I read your explanation, although I think that that doesn't necessarily support evolution and we could go bla and bla and bla and never end, which I don't want.

And, about your last sentences, I believe that organisms adapt (we have very clear and recent examples), but I don't believe that they evolve from one kind into another (yes, I know that some people say that this is contradictory), nor that everything that is on Earth evolved from a single form of life.

Just out of curiousity, where do you think new life repeatadly comes from? There has been 5 mass extinction events, each one leading to the deaths of over 50% of the species on the planet, and many more minor extinction events that each lead to the deaths of less than 50% of the species on earth (though each time a very large and significant %), and then there is also the normal background rate of extinction that normal species are being wiped out by at a constant rate. 99% of all species that have existed are now extinct. If life can't evolve into new forms of life, do you think that some intelligence is just coming to earth every few million years to restock the biosphere?



You can find me on facebook as Markus Van Rijn, if you friend me just mention you're from VGchartz and who you are here.

Baroque_Dude said:

I can't accept as something "scientific" the explanation that a lot of millions ago a BIG BOOM just created everything and from nothing emerged the very first form of life that has been evolving into EVERYTHING we see besides rocks and water. Where they there to empirically observe and check that procedure? This is another way of creationism, just theirs.

First of all, the Big Bang Theory doesnt say what caused the Big Bang, or if there was anything before the Big Bang.  In fact, most scientists are convinced that we could never answer these questions.

Secondly, we get something from nothing all the time, in the form of quantum fluctuations.  A quantum fluctuation is a brief violation of the conservation of mass and energy, though the amount of mass and energy overall is conserved and whatever particle that was created will quickly be destroyed.  This is also very important to Hawking's Theory of Hawking Radiation, and if black holes didn't evaporate then we should have been engulfed in a black hole a long time ago.

The universe could very well be a stable quantum fluctuation.  If so then BOOM, everything from nothing.



Rath said:
Baroque_Dude said:
Rath said:

@Baroque_Dude. Is the big bang even taught in high school? If not then its kind of irrelevant to this discussion. If it is then there is plenty of evidence for it and with the Planck telescope its only going to get stronger - we can actually see the remenants of the big bang in cosmic radiation. As for evolution - the fact of evolution has been well known for a long time now and the theory of evolution is considered one of the very strongest in modern science. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence for it.

It's not all about evidence, it's about how everyone INTERPRETS that evidence, mate. You have your opinion, I have mine and I didn't want to come here to discuss about our personal beliefs, but to answer the thread question. The question is not "Who wins? Creationism or evolution?", it is about what is to be taught in schools.

Regards. -

And the one that is to be taught in schools is the one that is science. As I said, ID/creationism does not qualify as a scientific theory - it is not falsifiable.

I'm going to quote myself from an older thread here,

As much as I hesitate to say this, it's too often ignored: evolution (at least, most of the idea) is wholly unscientific. Observability, testability, repeatability, and falsifiability are the hallmarks of the scientific method, and not much of these can be applied to a large amount of evolutionary work (as much of it deals with the past). So much of it can't be called a theory, and certainly not science.

That doesn't necessarily destroy any certainty in evolution, but as many of you are moved to demonstrate the definition of theory, this mightIn any evense be a good thing to know.

One might call it a "historical" theory (in the branch of historical science), but that would be quite different than the word "theory" in the phrase "theory of gravity".

On a side note, I would like to point out that science can easily come to a supernatural conclusion; if we have two contradicting sets of well-established observations, then some kind of non-physical explanation would be needed to reconcile the two of them (can't have a contradiction).  Therefore, it would not be in the interest of science to throw out the supernatural as a possibility (which is where ID is concerned (albeit, when it goes historically, it no longer is science, either)).



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
appolose said:
Rath said:
Baroque_Dude said:
Rath said:

@Baroque_Dude. Is the big bang even taught in high school? If not then its kind of irrelevant to this discussion. If it is then there is plenty of evidence for it and with the Planck telescope its only going to get stronger - we can actually see the remenants of the big bang in cosmic radiation. As for evolution - the fact of evolution has been well known for a long time now and the theory of evolution is considered one of the very strongest in modern science. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence for it.

It's not all about evidence, it's about how everyone INTERPRETS that evidence, mate. You have your opinion, I have mine and I didn't want to come here to discuss about our personal beliefs, but to answer the thread question. The question is not "Who wins? Creationism or evolution?", it is about what is to be taught in schools.

Regards. -

And the one that is to be taught in schools is the one that is science. As I said, ID/creationism does not qualify as a scientific theory - it is not falsifiable.

I'm going to quote myself from an older thread here,

As much as I hesitate to say this, it's too often ignored: evolution (at least, most of the idea) is wholly unscientific. Observability, testability, repeatability, and falsifiability are the hallmarks of the scientific method, and not much of these can be applied to a large amount of evolutionary work (as much of it deals with the past). So much of it can't be called a theory, and certainly not science.

That doesn't necessarily destroy any certainty in evolution, but as many of you are moved to demonstrate the definition of theory, this mightIn any evense be a good thing to know.

One might call it a "historical" theory (in the branch of historical science), but that would be quite different than the word "theory" in the phrase "theory of gravity".

On a side note, I would like to point out that science can easily come to a supernatural conclusion; if we have two contradicting sets of well-established observations, then some kind of non-physical explanation would be needed to reconcile the two of them (can't have a contradiction).  Therefore, it would not be in the interest of science to throw out the supernatural as a possibility (which is where ID is concerned (albeit, when it goes historically, it no longer is science, either)).

Im doo drunk to yell you how stupdi thsi is. BUT YOU"RE A GOOD GUY> O r maybe not. I don't know you, youyu voulf br a duck for all I knwo. But thsdi is dumb. GEOLOGY BITCHES>



You can find me on facebook as Markus Van Rijn, if you friend me just mention you're from VGchartz and who you are here.

appolose said:

I'm going to quote myself from an older thread here,

As much as I hesitate to say this, it's too often ignored: evolution (at least, most of the idea) is wholly unscientific. Observability, testability, repeatability, and falsifiability are the hallmarks of the scientific method, and not much of these can be applied to a large amount of evolutionary work (as much of it deals with the past). So much of it can't be called a theory, and certainly not science.

That doesn't necessarily destroy any certainty in evolution, but as many of you are moved to demonstrate the definition of theory, this mightIn any evense be a good thing to know.

One might call it a "historical" theory (in the branch of historical science), but that would be quite different than the word "theory" in the phrase "theory of gravity".

On a side note, I would like to point out that science can easily come to a supernatural conclusion; if we have two contradicting sets of well-established observations, then some kind of non-physical explanation would be needed to reconcile the two of them (can't have a contradiction).  Therefore, it would not be in the interest of science to throw out the supernatural as a possibility (which is where ID is concerned (albeit, when it goes historically, it no longer is science, either)).

Claiming that science can't be applied to the past is an absurd notion.  'Historical Science,' as you put it, claims that the past was like the present.  Physics worked the same way as it does now, chemistry worked the same way it does now, and so forth. 

This logic is not limited to science.  Everyone makes this very assumption in their everyday lives, that the future and present will be like the past.  Even animals are able to use this simple idea.  If you did not make this assumption, you could not function, as almost everything you do is based upon an experience you had in the past and you assume the same will hold true for the present and future.  You dont go to sleep and hope gravity works tomorrow, you dont look for food in the washing machine when you get hungry because you dont know where food is stored, you dont get in your car and wonder if the chemsitry of combustion will work today, you dont call your boss before you go to work everyday and ask if the office building is in the same place it was yesterday, and so forth.

All the Theory of Evolution (as well as fundamental theories in almost every other field) does is base itself on that assumption.  Even the Thoery of Gravity that you quoted makes the same assumption, that physics wont change from one time to the next.