I personally think that senior members of the Bush administaration, probably including Cheney and possibly including Bush, are actually guilty of treason.

o.O

O.o


Man some guys on this thread are so damned paranoid. The world isnt out to get you and the American government is far too incompetent to do anything of the sort.
Really the only thing that I would even consider listening to conspiracy theories about is the CIA and thats only because they are so very secretive (and often illegal, I dont care where your prisons are but torture shouldnt be carried out by a department of the USA)

Lingyis said: Final-Fan said: Erik Aston said: Would Israel exist without American foreign policy? It was established illegitimately with the help of Britain and the UN and maintained by endless hundreds of billions of dollars of American foreign aid. What business does Britain or the UN have partitioning Palestine? And how is it in the best interest of the American people to give so much money to Israel? Who knows what the world would be like if America never started taking an inexplicable interest in Israel? I can tell you one thing that would be better: US-Middle East relations. [emphasis added] How much aid has the USA really given to Israel? I don't know but I doubt that it is as much as you say. And we have given aid to the rest of the region as well. As for how good our relations with the Middle East would be, that is impossible to say, but people would still be fighting over oil even if they weren't fighting over Jews. Probably it would be Arab vs. Arab or Arab vs. Persian (Iran) instead of Arab & Persian vs. Jew, and that might be even messier than what exists now.   google it up. for dramatic effects, you should find out for yourself just how much the US foots the bill.

A reasonable amount of Internet research indicates that since the creation of Israel, the US government has given Israel slightly more (or perhaps slightly less) than $100 billion. This compares to $63.5 billion to Egypt in the same time period. God knows how much we've given the Saudis, who hardly need it, and the Turks in return for airbases all over the region.

So yes, we've given Israel a lot. Yes, we've given them a lot MORE than your average Arab state. But $100 billion is NOT "endless hundreds of billions" and it's not like the US hasn't been greasing wheels like crazy all over the region for decades, with iffy results.

1950s: Iran nationalizes British oil company. The CIA helps overthrow the government (it works on the second try). (aid $$$ to new BFF)
Later 1950s: Whoops, the guy the CIA helped take over turns out to be a dictator. Oh well, he likes us so we like him (aid $$$).
1979: Iran doesn't like him. Revolution time! Guess who else the revolutionaries don't like.
Early 1980s: Iraq hates Iran and so do we. New BFF of USA: Saddam Hussein! (aid $$$ and guns)
Early 1990s: Whoops, Saddam invaded some innocent country. At least we're not afraid to clean up our own messes.

Through all that, is it strange that the US would tend to like a country that just took our money, didn't spit in our face, and didn't invade its neighbors?

Rath said: I personally think that senior members of the Bush administaration, probably including Cheney and possibly including Bush, are actually guilty of treason. o.O O.o Man some guys on this thread are so damned paranoid. The world isnt out to get you and the American government is far too incompetent to do anything of the sort. Really the only thing that I would even consider listening to conspiracy theories about is the CIA and thats only because they are so very secretive (and often illegal, I dont care where your prisons are but torture shouldnt be carried out by a department of the USA)

 Oh, they haven't been particuarly competent about it.  If they had tried to pull this shit with the press that took down Nixon watching, they'd have been impeached and kicked out of office long ago.  But no one even knows about the shit they pull.  They've gone on national television and talked about starting programs, programs that have been proven to be illegal.  

When I say "treason" I don't mean they're trying to overthrow the government or anything. They're trying (with some SUCCESS) to subvert the Constitution and consolidate power to themselves, often so they and their corporate cronies can profit but sometimes just because they seem to have no concept of why we have checks and balances.

Warrantless wiretapping? UnConstitutional. "We couldn't bother to get FISA warrants, which can be obtained up to 48 hours AFTER THE FACT"? Please.

Politics politics. In the end we all have different opinions so quite frankly, this argument will always be endless. Why waste our time trying to convince eachother that we're the only person in the world that can be right about all of this?

 

Manbearpig. That's all I have to say. Don't get me wrong, I like Al Gore, and I believe global warming is real, but this applies here too. People getting so worked up something that really doesn't exist.

I have a question. People keep stating how the bush administration keeps trying to get "totalitarian powers" through the war etc. etc. Why? Why the hell do they want the "power?" What has he done/will he do with the power? If i see someone make an action, i question, what drives that action? Are you going to tell me it's just the natural human drive for "power," because otherwise, I see no benefit to this "power" he is gaining.

Final-Fan said: When I say "treason" I don't mean they're trying to overthrow the government or anything. They're trying (with some SUCCESS) to subvert the Constitution and consolidate power to themselves, often so they and their corporate cronies can profit but sometimes just because they seem to have no concept of why we have checks and balances. Warrantless wiretapping? UnConstitutional. "We couldn't bother to get FISA warrants, which can be obtained up to 48 hours AFTER THE FACT"? Please.

 Treason is trying to overthrow the govt. thats the definition.

Destroying freedoms isnt treason, however it may be (I dont know, Im not American) unconstitutional. 

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

I stand corrected. I believe that Cheney and Bush are both criminals who are corroding the protections in place in the Constitution, probably deliberately. I will immediately edit my post to that effect.

Final-Fan said: When I say "treason" I don't mean they're trying to overthrow the government or anything. They're trying (with some SUCCESS) to subvert the Constitution and consolidate power to themselves, often so they and their corporate cronies can profit but sometimes just because they seem to have no concept of why we have checks and balances. Warrantless wiretapping? UnConstitutional. "We couldn't bother to get FISA warrants, which can be obtained up to 48 hours AFTER THE FACT"? Please.

I certainly won't say the Bush administration is perfect, but you're so blinded by hatred for him that you seem to actually believe the he's the first president to pull some shady moves. Here's a shocker: he's not. Another shocker is that I bet that every government on earth is corrupt, just like the US government. I'd even say that probably every government in the history of man was corrupt. If you actually think the US is so bad, try for one minute to wipe the bias from your mind and consider the power and influence that the US has and has had, then consider what this world would be like if Nazi Germany, Hussein's regime, N Korea, and countless other truly ruthless regime's had that kind of power. Since everyone in the world is so concerned about the US in regards to their freedom, I'd have thought by now that everyone would be up in arms about the actions of Russia. Russia is the one showing true signs of aggression to peaceful nations and it's own citizens. But everyone is so into hating the US, that Russia is getting a free pass in the meantime.

Avalach21 said: I have a question. People keep stating how the bush administration keeps trying to get "totalitarian powers" through the war etc. etc. Why? Why the hell do they want the "power?" What has he done/will he do with the power? If i see someone make an action, i question, what drives that action? Are you going to tell me it's just the natural human drive for "power," because otherwise, I see no benefit to this "power" he is gaining.

Partly through a genuine attempt to curb terrorism and other criminal activities, but disregarding the dangers of unfettered power being centralized to one part of government; partly in order to profit from it or to give profit to their Good Ole Boys/corporate network, who will turn around and point profit back their way as well; and partly to advance their political ideology, which many of them believe in very strongly.  (That ideology has been held up to the point that the invasion and occupation of Iraq was conducted in accordance with that ideology, and any generals who objected to those strategic decisions, such as necessary troop levels, were replaced.)  Also, I'm sure, they are gathering power because "hey, I know I'll use it for something"; and then again there really are people who desire power for the sake of power.