are you really surprised by this CGI?....=.=

My point is, if the competition can do it, Polyphony should have spent time on what is now their 5th iteration to make the game feel more real. Simulation is exactly that. Something is not considered a sim if it has some sim stuff and some arcade stuff. Dont really want to compare the 2, but they are direct competitors. And one game is clearly attempting to behave as a sim on all fronts. Not just solo driving.

Lets face it, Polyphony have kinda done it to themselves. It's not getting great write ups in the press either. And the info about not all cars having damage is to many a move further afield from sim. I'm sure it will still be a fun game for the fans. But clearly it won't be at the forefront of sim, because it isn't a full sim.

Your very wrong indeed. I have owned every GT game except GT5P. ( But I have played it  ) GT was untouchable for the first 3 iterations on console for me. I loved it. I remeber the day I bought my PS2 GT3 bundle. I was like a kid on steroids. But it hasn't moved forward. Yeah GT has loads of stock cars. Has good number of tracks and nice graphics. But the but is a BIG but. dmage model is important not just cosmetically, but technically. Physics for GT have always been good solo driving, but collide and it's like it's not the same game.

Unfortunately now there is competition from numerous devs like Simbin and Turn 10, the series looks stale. I find it very hard to call it a sim anymore. Because it frankly doesnt replicate what happens when you race a car against other cars. And replicating this is what Simulation is, is it not?

GT5 doesn't even have a release date (granted it probably will come out late this year), so how can we know for sure if it has half-assed damage or not.  If it does than that kinda sucks, but it probably won't.  I'm confident it will be at least decent damage...

Yes, unfortunately it seems thats the fate of all hyped/good looking games

It is already confirmed that only 170 cars have any kind of damage. Which means the rest dont have any. And if there is any technical damage at all on those 170 cars, racing them online against cars with none will be entirely unfair. Unless if you choose damage online then only those rally and Nascar cars will be available. The game seems very broken. But it is confirmed that only 170 cars have damage. And there is no Porches in the game.

Instead of trying to incorporate 800 odd cars, they should have paid attention to the details that make up simulation. Damage model on all cars, both technically and cosmetically. Things like tyre deformation, not just visually but technically like flatspots affecting the handling etc. Not using the clutch on your steering properly causing the clutch to possibly brake, making you not able to finish the race. This is stuff simulation racers need to have nowadays. As the competition is hot in this field right now. Especially concerning PC sims.

Nobody, so far as I've played, has remotely got close to realistic damage and I'm not expecting GT5 to (nor Forza 3 for that matter, as I see it's predictably been dragged into the thread).

Damage to date, IMO, has been either very arcade in nature or build around a reasonable approximation of damage to impact gameplay.

Whether in Burount, Forza or other driving games I've never once felt the damage was in any way in line with the concept of a simulation - the calculations, graphical requirements, etc. for realistic simulation would be huge, it seems to me, and beyond the scope of these titles.

Reading comments from GT5 developers that would seem to be behind much of their thinking - can damage be supported suitably for a simulation? I get the feeling the developers aren't convinced but feel they have to add it due to market demand - and I agree that with online play now you need something to stop exploiting impacts that have no cost.

In the end GT5 I believe will have to compromise, just as other titles have, and aim to have something that 'feels' right and does the job from gameplay point of view vs trying to get realistic damage in the game.

Seeing as how no one's played the final version of Forza 3 either, it's a bit premature to be smugly claiming victory for something one doesn't even have any affiliation with beyond being a common consumer with a preference (not an industry insider, not a developer).

I'd ask that everyone stop trying to do PR for a company they're not getting paid by, but I know that'll never happen.

Personally, I can only judge by what I've played and what I bought. And frankly, the damage in Forza 2 was about as arcade-like and unrealistic as any other game with damage.

Until I play the retail version of Forza 3 and am fully impressed by the vast improvements, it will not get the benefit of the doubt from me. Turn 10 has blown the hype so far out of proportion with their PR, nothing short of a miracle will deliver. In other words, something that is completely the opposite of Forza 2, which while excellent for what it was, was not anything approaching the definitive word in racing sims.

The worst case scenario for GT5 will be that the damage comes off as being an 11th hour add on feature, which simply wouldn't fit in as a balanced game play mechanic as true to life damage literally defines real life racing once the fundamentals of motorsports driving skills have been mastered. GT games have had the same bumper car physics since the beginning and changing that is not something that can simply be added as an afterthought. If that's the case, I hope there will be an option to shut it off or dial it down.

As for the dialed in percentage numbers (which turned out to be the equivalent of a "life bar" for your car parts), etc. for Forza 2, they were a poor substitute for mechanical damage, so I hope that's been appropriately reworked from scratch along with the crumple can damage models.

When I "blow" an engine past red line, I want to see an oil slick and con rod pieces all over the tarmac. When I hit an object at full wheel lock, I want to see tie rods snap and steering completely disabled. And if I don't see that, I don't want to hear another word about life-like realistic damage from Turn 10.