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Forums - Microsoft - Xbox 360 Failure Rate is 54.2 Percent

had 360 broke within a year of purchase lost reciept so no fix sold it broken for $120 used money to buy the bst invesment eva ps3



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kicks1989 said:
had 360 broke within a year of purchase lost reciept so no fix sold it broken for $120 used money to buy the bst invesment eva ps3

Lost ur receipt...wow...that sucks...but you got a ps3...so it all worked out for the better



"...You can't kill ideas with a sword, and you can't sink belief structures with a broadside. You defeat them by making them change..."

- From By Schism Rent Asunder

Thats...Huge.
I thought it was that 30% or something...But thats just huge.



 

 

Take my love, take my land..

dougsdad0629 said:
mario64 said:
I know people who bought 5 or 6 360. I guess they didn't have the 3 year warranty. I'm in Europe though.

This is exactly why you'll have a hard time convincing me that 360's sales numbers aren't overly inflated.  How many people have actually bought more than 1 system due to being out of warranty, etc. rather than having the same one repaired?


With the attach rate of games to 360's this refutes any massive amount of people purchasing new 360's to replace one that died.  My launch 360 died once and that was this past March and MS still fixed it for free.  The vast majority of 360's are still under the 3 year warranty. Any 360 sold after August 2006 is still under warranty. That means roughly 4 million are now not under warranty.  Since I cant be the only person that got a free fix months after the warranty supposedly ended it is very unlikely any massive amount of people bought a new 360 to replace an old one that died.

As for the article the 54% number is BS. 



Its libraries that sell systems not a single game.

LIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



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Xoj said:
failure rate it's high here too so it's OMG PS3 FANBOYS survey.
i seen a few jasper E74 and a red RE5 RROD.
those problems are not fixed, but rather they are less prone to happen.
less heat , it will go down slowly.
but since the 360 its not really a quiet machine to begin with, and the cpu and gpu are complex enough for such a small box, they are likely to jump on heat or stay around 40 c- 60 c.
which is enough to degrade slow , and E74 and RROD.
a fix for this microsoft redesign the console, and make de gpu and cpu 2.0 backward compatible , but when they are doing something more than a slim down that they need.
its a few billion in research because they have to redesign gpu and cpu and they won't do that.
so RROD E74 will be there.

I'm gathering from your detailed description you know very little about what actually causes RROD and E74.  Allow me to highlight why it's not some simple fix that is easily solved with a few updates. 

The primary cause for the problems is the use of lead free solder which is mandatory for electrical goods now.  Lead free solder has a melting point of around 220 degrees roughly which when compared to lead solder which has a melting point of around 180 degrees (Celsius).  The problem here is that in order to solder the GPU to the motherboard the solder when using lead free solder is heated to a lot higher temperature to flow, at such high temperatures the heat isn't applied as long (to protect the GPU silicon), also the solder doesn't flow as well as leaded solder.  This produces micro fractures in the joints and generally not as good connectivity. 

Having established the GPU and CPU aren't soldered as well as they could be we move onto the next contributing factor.  The 360 uses a multi layered board which is very thin.  Over time the xclamps when combined with heat build up in the board can cause the motherboard to warp slightly.  When the board warps this can be enough to trigger a break in connectivity on the GPU which reaults in the RROD and E74 errors.  In order to prevent RROD Microsoft have tried numerous fixes, one of these is when they went to the HDMI chassis they altered the height of the middle standoffs which were too high and caused the middle of the board to bend too.  This is the probable reason for why E74 errors became more common than RROD because they moved the motherboard warping to a different point. 

The xclamps are often blamed for the problems with the 360 but in fairness they're a good solution if not anchored like they are on the 360.  People often say why can't Microsoft solve such a simple issue, the fact is the problem is very complex and there is only one real solution to the issue.  They will have to redesign the motherboard completely, this will probably mean ideally being a thicker board to reduce warping.  The next point is a complete chassis and cooling revision which will be a huge job as they would likely involve changing the exterior of the 360 too.  The Jaspers do reduce the risks of board problems through a lot less heat generated, also no memory on the bottom of the board helps.

I suspect the plaster approach they've used to fix the issues so far is so they could wait for a full redesign to coincide with a slimmer model.  The 1 billion they wrote off might not be such a hefty bill when you consider how much it would of cost for 2 drastic board revisions in the consoles lifetime. 

Sorry for the wall of text but if it highlights to just one person how complex the problem is then it was worth writing.

 



slowmo said:
Xoj said:
failure rate it's high here too so it's OMG PS3 FANBOYS survey.
i seen a few jasper E74 and a red RE5 RROD.
those problems are not fixed, but rather they are less prone to happen.
less heat , it will go down slowly.
but since the 360 its not really a quiet machine to begin with, and the cpu and gpu are complex enough for such a small box, they are likely to jump on heat or stay around 40 c- 60 c.
which is enough to degrade slow , and E74 and RROD.
a fix for this microsoft redesign the console, and make de gpu and cpu 2.0 backward compatible , but when they are doing something more than a slim down that they need.
its a few billion in research because they have to redesign gpu and cpu and they won't do that.
so RROD E74 will be there.

I'm gathering from your detailed description you know very little about what actually causes RROD and E74.  Allow me to highlight why it's not some simple fix that is easily solved with a few updates. 

The primary cause for the problems is the use of lead free solder which is mandatory for electrical goods now.  Lead free solder has a melting point of around 220 degrees roughly which when compared to lead solder which has a melting point of around 180 degrees (Celsius).  The problem here is that in order to solder the GPU to the motherboard the solder when using lead free solder is heated to a lot higher temperature to flow, at such high temperatures the heat isn't applied as long (to protect the GPU silicon), also the solder doesn't flow as well as leaded solder.  This produces micro fractures in the joints and generally not as good connectivity. 

Having established the GPU and CPU aren't soldered as well as they could be we move onto the next contributing factor.  The 360 uses a multi layered board which is very thin.  Over time the xclamps when combined with heat build up in the board can cause the motherboard to warp slightly.  When the board warps this can be enough to trigger a break in connectivity on the GPU which reaults in the RROD and E74 errors.  In order to prevent RROD Microsoft have tried numerous fixes, one of these is when they went to the HDMI chassis they altered the height of the middle standoffs which were too high and caused the middle of the board to bend too.  This is the probable reason for why E74 errors became more common than RROD because they moved the motherboard warping to a different point. 

The xclamps are often blamed for the problems with the 360 but in fairness they're a good solution if not anchored like they are on the 360.  People often say why can't Microsoft solve such a simple issue, the fact is the problem is very complex and there is only one real solution to the issue.  They will have to redesign the motherboard completely, this will probably mean ideally being a thicker board to reduce warping.  The next point is a complete chassis and cooling revision which will be a huge job as they would likely involve changing the exterior of the 360 too.  The Jaspers do reduce the risks of board problems through a lot less heat generated, also no memory on the bottom of the board helps.

I suspect the plaster approach they've used to fix the issues so far is so they could wait for a full redesign to coincide with a slimmer model.  The 1 billion they wrote off might not be such a hefty bill when you consider how much it would of cost for 2 drastic board revisions in the consoles lifetime. 

Sorry for the wall of text but if it highlights to just one person how complex the problem is then it was worth writing.

 

thank you for adding that to my post.

if you taken physics you should know that costant heat input can slowly degrade the solder just as 180 C but slower.

but of course a better attachable cpu+gpu in a single die would help preventing of both going wrong, and that's why valhalla it's being develop-



Squilliam said:
Xoj said:
Squilliam said:

Then be glad consumers rewarded Sony for crappy hardware with the PS1 and PS2 since you seem to me to be quite fond of SCE. Whats written in the PS2 slim manual? Ohhh don't play for more than 5 hours? Well damn, the Xbox 360 can do better than that and thats without having 9-10 PS2 revisions.

What about the people who defended Nvidia for their bumpgate problems, you know the one thats cost them ~300M in repairs thus far? These problems happened after the Xbox 360 problems occoured so shouldn't they have learnt from the similar Xbox 360 example?

If consumers shunned badly designed consoles, we would be talking about the golden ages of the N64, Saturn, Dreamcast, Xbox 1 (maybe) and the PS1/2 would be like a footnote in history.

never a console had a high failure rate of the 360, even so ps1 and ps2 didn't DIE.

Ps1 motors was plastic, prone to meltdown, it could be fixed

and ps2 had a lens problems, fixed by clean or changing the lens, both problems corrected after a year.

Sony admits to failing Nvidia chips 13 months late

SONY HAS FINALLY confessed that it used defective graphics chips in 14 models in its Vaio laptop range. The defective chips, manufactured by Nvidia, can cause distorted video, graphics display artifacts, random characters and blank screens.

The problem first arose over a year ago and Nvidia finally admitted it in an SEC 8K filing in July 2008. Major PC manufacturers including Apple, Dell and HP have long since implemented free recall and repair programmes, paid for at least in part by Nvidia.

Nvidia's problem was caused by cracking in the underfill material of the graphics chips and worsened by high levels of heat generated in laptops, and it was diagnosed by the Inquirer in September 2008.

Some manufacturers initially attempted to cover up the chip problem by supplying system patches that continually activated cooling fans to prevent further damage and stave off expensive warranty repairs.

But persistent pressure from the Inquirer and lots of angry users led to admissions from Nvidia and the manufacturers as well as high volumes of laptop repairs under warranty and even some product recalls.

Throughout this whole debacle, Sony remained tight-lipped, insisting that its products were unaffected.

Until now, that is.

A statement from Sony, dated August 4th 2009, reads as follows:

"In July 2008, Nvidia publicly acknowledged a failure associated with some of their graphics processors (GPU) due to a manufacturing defect in the graphics chip packaging. At that time Sony and Nvidia jointly investigated whether Vaio models equipped with this GPU were impacted by the issue. This investigation revealed that the issue had not occurred in such Vaio models.

"However, after closely monitoring the situation, Sony has now determined that a very small percentage of computers with the Nvidia graphics chips may be affected.

"These PCs may exhibit distorted video, random characters or a blank screen due to failure of the Nvidia graphics chips.

"As part of our commitment to quality, for any customer who requires repair of their Vaio due to the Nvidia graphics processor issue, Sony will cover the cost of repair (parts and labour) at no charge during the first four years following the date of purchase of the models in question (see list below).

"In case your model is shown in the list below, we invite you to contact Vaio support to arrange service for your Viao."

Is it coincidence that this announcement - which is buried deep in the Sony Vaio support website, and only accessible if you have your model number and serial number to hand - came exactly 13 months after Nvidia finally admitted its culpability?

We can only guess how many disgruntled Sony Vaio owners have scrapped an apparently dead 'out of warranty' laptop because of the faulty Nvidia graphics chips. µ

i think that answers everything, Sony always comes out smelling like roses.****

Roses which are genetically altered to small like shit that is.****

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1528907/sony-admits-failing-nvidia-chips-months-late

This is your answer, btw since we don't have any accurate information on the PS1 and PS2 failures we cannot be certain of the nature and extent of their problems. So whilst I cannot prove that its any worse than RROD, you cannot prove it was any better and the extent of the problem really does enter into a subjective area where the capability of the user and the types of failure and whether the consumer was out of pocket come into play.

they are giving support OUT OF WARRANTY to nvidia vaio users according to engadget, but you had to look flamewar stater the inquirer , and they also were fast in their own Battery fiasco.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/11/sony-finally-admits-nvidia-chips-are-borking-its-laptops-offers/

and Sony is offering to repair yours for free within four years of the purchase date, irrespective of warranty status. Kudos go to Sony for (eventually) addressing the problem,

 



Xoj said:
Squilliam said:

Sony admits to failing Nvidia chips 13 months late

SONY HAS FINALLY confessed that it used defective graphics chips in 14 models in its Vaio laptop range. The defective chips, manufactured by Nvidia, can cause distorted video, graphics display artifacts, random characters and blank screens.

The problem first arose over a year ago and Nvidia finally admitted it in an SEC 8K filing in July 2008. Major PC manufacturers including Apple, Dell and HP have long since implemented free recall and repair programmes, paid for at least in part by Nvidia.

Nvidia's problem was caused by cracking in the underfill material of the graphics chips and worsened by high levels of heat generated in laptops, and it was diagnosed by the Inquirer in September 2008.

Some manufacturers initially attempted to cover up the chip problem by supplying system patches that continually activated cooling fans to prevent further damage and stave off expensive warranty repairs.

But persistent pressure from the Inquirer and lots of angry users led to admissions from Nvidia and the manufacturers as well as high volumes of laptop repairs under warranty and even some product recalls.

Throughout this whole debacle, Sony remained tight-lipped, insisting that its products were unaffected.

Until now, that is.

A statement from Sony, dated August 4th 2009, reads as follows:

"In July 2008, Nvidia publicly acknowledged a failure associated with some of their graphics processors (GPU) due to a manufacturing defect in the graphics chip packaging. At that time Sony and Nvidia jointly investigated whether Vaio models equipped with this GPU were impacted by the issue. This investigation revealed that the issue had not occurred in such Vaio models.

"However, after closely monitoring the situation, Sony has now determined that a very small percentage of computers with the Nvidia graphics chips may be affected.

"These PCs may exhibit distorted video, random characters or a blank screen due to failure of the Nvidia graphics chips.

"As part of our commitment to quality, for any customer who requires repair of their Vaio due to the Nvidia graphics processor issue, Sony will cover the cost of repair (parts and labour) at no charge during the first four years following the date of purchase of the models in question (see list below).

"In case your model is shown in the list below, we invite you to contact Vaio support to arrange service for your Viao."

Is it coincidence that this announcement - which is buried deep in the Sony Vaio support website, and only accessible if you have your model number and serial number to hand - came exactly 13 months after Nvidia finally admitted its culpability?

We can only guess how many disgruntled Sony Vaio owners have scrapped an apparently dead 'out of warranty' laptop because of the faulty Nvidia graphics chips. µ

i think that answers everything, Sony always comes out smelling like roses.****

Roses which are genetically altered to small like shit that is.****

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1528907/sony-admits-failing-nvidia-chips-months-late

This is your answer, btw since we don't have any accurate information on the PS1 and PS2 failures we cannot be certain of the nature and extent of their problems. So whilst I cannot prove that its any worse than RROD, you cannot prove it was any better and the extent of the problem really does enter into a subjective area where the capability of the user and the types of failure and whether the consumer was out of pocket come into play.

they are giving support OUT OF WARRANTY to nvidia vaio users according to engadget, but you had to look flamewar stater the inquirer , and they also were fast in their own Battery fiasco.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/11/sony-finally-admits-nvidia-chips-are-borking-its-laptops-offers/

and Sony is offering to repair yours for free within four years of the purchase date, irrespective of warranty status. Kudos go to Sony for (eventually) addressing the problem,

 

18 months after they knew about a problem? Kudos my ass. It took about 6 months for Nvidia to own up to the problem. Btw, Nvidias paying for it, so no they did nothing right here.

 



Tease.

This thread is a joke. Surveys are rarely right, this one also didn't take into consideration the new chipsets, nor did the author of the article mention the 3 year warranty.
Also, I quote "The most shocking number from the survey — and frightening from a consumer perspective — is only 3.8 percent of Xbox 360 owners said they'd never buy another Xbox because of hardware failure."
Really? The author is not biased at all...



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